2

votes

Calorie in calories out

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created April 15, 2011 at 7:13 PM

Do you agree on Dr. Greg Ellis's views as he disagrees with Gary Taubes as to how calories DO count and one CAN get fat on a fat and protein diet?

Thanks,

Hope this is a valid question. =)

A64ed062eb5e2c3407122fcf16c5de6b

(715)

on August 27, 2011
at 12:13 PM

How about this then, "Unless your metabolism is damaged, counting calories is a waste of time". Of course, most people worrying about counting calories probably have damaged metabolisms ;-)

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 25, 2011
at 05:50 PM

would imply that all people have to worry about how much water they drink all the time.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 25, 2011
at 05:50 PM

...would imply that all people have to worry about how much water they drink al the time.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 25, 2011
at 05:45 PM

IV. Some people may be further damaged, and have to eat LC and consciously eat to less than satiety - probably because of persistent leptin resistance. Such people, in their frustration, may then speculate that categories I-III don't exist. It is not fair, but these people may be stuck with being food conscious forever, like alcoholics who can't avoid the drink without daily AA meetings. It's not their fault. But the existence of such people doesn't prove that CICO is the only thing we can say about fat loss, anymore than the existence of people with diabetes insipidus...

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 25, 2011
at 05:45 PM

III. Some metabolically damaged people may be so metabolically deranged that they must always eat a particular diet, say low carbohydrate diet, in order to maintain weight. Otherwise, they gain.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 25, 2011
at 05:44 PM

II. Some metabolically damaged people can heal their damage with time and abstinence from what caused the damage. Then they can be like the people in I, and need never weigh, or measure their food or their exercise output, ever. These people exist. I am one of them.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 25, 2011
at 05:44 PM

I.Normal weight people eating a healthy whole foods diet don't need to do anything - their weight is spontaneously regulated with zero conscious thought the same way their breathing and thier thirst are regulated, They don't accidentaly die of cerebral edema from polydypsia, nor do they die of dehydration because they forget to drink enough. If the brain and gut and liver are as unbroken as the kidneys, no conscious thought need be given to the weight or energy content of food, ever.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 25, 2011
at 05:44 PM

@Melissa - I am going to post a few snippets from something Kurt Harris wrote on another blog. It is a bit long so I will split into a couple different comments. The key message is that perhaps our experiences are different because of the extent of metabolic damage prior to ditching the SAD. Food for thought, pun intended :-)

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on April 25, 2011
at 05:21 PM

Well, it was my last meal of the day, so I ate breakfast normally today. I find that I still eat by the clock, so if it is time to eat, I eat. I may eat slightly less after overeating, but it is still typically more calories than I would have eaten if I had been counting. It does not even out for me.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 25, 2011
at 04:48 PM

@Melissa/Todd - In those situations where you feel you have overeaten in hindsight, what was the impact to your consumption in the next meal? The reason I ask is because my own experience has been that I tend to under consume in the next meal. Therefore across several meals, the satiety meter tends to work. Cheers!

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 25, 2011
at 04:45 PM

@Shari - I did not mean to assert that satiety was a binary thing or that everyone has a well-oiled satiety meter. Having said that, given the numerous clinical trials and anecdotal evidence (n=1 testimonials) regarding spontaneous caloric reduction with a low carb diet, "on average" I think what I said holds water. Anyway, thanks for the comment. No disagreement from me. Cheers :-)

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on April 25, 2011
at 04:08 PM

Same here Melissa. Once in a while I let myself "eat until I'm done" And a few hours later, I almost always decide it was too much.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on April 25, 2011
at 03:11 PM

Yep, Shari! I ate til "satiety" last night at Easter dinner, but after it had time to settle I was overly FULL. While I'm eating though, it's easy to just keep going without preset limits.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on April 25, 2011
at 03:07 PM

Aravind I agree with you but would take issue with the assertion in your comment "But you would be going past the point of satiety to do so." While it seems for many people satiety matches up well with caloric needs that is not true for everyone. I think many women especially seem to only be satiated at a higher level than their needs. Perhaps this is a result of prior chronic dieting? I don't know. I just think it's dangerous to assert that the satiety meter for everyone is well-calibrated or perfectly functioning.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on April 25, 2011
at 03:00 PM

Great answer, Ben! I think most proponents of unweighed/unmeasured are counting on people's natural ability to stop eating when full. Some people just aren't good at that, so counting can be necessary in order to reach our goals.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on April 25, 2011
at 02:31 PM

Excellent reply

Ac9425a387b78cb37a01972fe848bddb

(655)

on April 16, 2011
at 05:31 PM

Have you actually seen his videos other than Homeopathic ones? He's been saying the same thing all the new low carber/paleo crowd has been saying for years before them. I would give him at least some credibility even if ou don't agree with his Homeopathic views. You cannot buy a Phd physiology.

A7ac68389a10bc99f33885e7ed0dbfe0

(165)

on April 15, 2011
at 11:44 PM

Before I found paleo... I counted calories and lost 60 lbs. I didn't change what I ate, just didn't eat much of it. The only problem is that I never leaned out... still was chubby, even at 150 lbs.!

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on April 15, 2011
at 07:48 PM

I got great answers on people's beliefs on Calories in / Calories out in this thread here: http://paleohacks.com/questions/15420/do-you-believe-in-calories-in-calories-out-for-weight-loss-or-gain-and-why#axzz1JcGEz272

Ac9425a387b78cb37a01972fe848bddb

(655)

on April 15, 2011
at 07:35 PM

Awesome, thanks a lot. What do you think of Dr. Greg Ellis?

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 15, 2011
at 07:31 PM

One more comment. Yes you can get fat eating high fat/protein if you exceed your caloric needs. But you would be going past the point of satiety to do so. This is mentioned in the Hyperlipid article I sent

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5 Answers

11
D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 15, 2011
at 07:27 PM

Gary Taubes never said calories do not matter. The point is using calories in/out to "explain" weight gain is a tautology. Acknowledging this does not invalidate the First Law of Thermodynamics. It is an attempt to shift ones focus on the hormonal impacts of macronutrient consumption. The focus on gluttony/sloth - eat less/move more - has not yielded any consistent long term results since you are fighting your natural set point. By adjusting the macronutrient composition and more importantly, avoid Neolithic Agents of Diseases - you can shift the hormonal response in your favor

Also, Kurt Harris, Peter at Hyperlipid, Stephan Guyenet have never said calories do not matter. See the following - http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2011/03/fasting-insulin-and-weight-loss.html

The first line is "I think that it might be a good idea to state here that I'm a calories-in calories-out sort of a person". Then the rest of the articles focuses on macronutrient consumption, hormonal response, satiety, etc.

We did not evolve with bomb calorimeters and so counting calories is futile and doesn't work. It's not that calories don't matter, but what is actionable by using a tautology to improve oneself...nothing.

This was the point of Taubes as I have understood it.

My 2 cents Aravind

Ac9425a387b78cb37a01972fe848bddb

(655)

on April 15, 2011
at 07:35 PM

Awesome, thanks a lot. What do you think of Dr. Greg Ellis?

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 15, 2011
at 07:31 PM

One more comment. Yes you can get fat eating high fat/protein if you exceed your caloric needs. But you would be going past the point of satiety to do so. This is mentioned in the Hyperlipid article I sent

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on April 25, 2011
at 03:11 PM

Yep, Shari! I ate til "satiety" last night at Easter dinner, but after it had time to settle I was overly FULL. While I'm eating though, it's easy to just keep going without preset limits.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 25, 2011
at 05:44 PM

II. Some metabolically damaged people can heal their damage with time and abstinence from what caused the damage. Then they can be like the people in I, and need never weigh, or measure their food or their exercise output, ever. These people exist. I am one of them.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on April 25, 2011
at 02:31 PM

Excellent reply

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on April 25, 2011
at 05:21 PM

Well, it was my last meal of the day, so I ate breakfast normally today. I find that I still eat by the clock, so if it is time to eat, I eat. I may eat slightly less after overeating, but it is still typically more calories than I would have eaten if I had been counting. It does not even out for me.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 25, 2011
at 04:45 PM

@Shari - I did not mean to assert that satiety was a binary thing or that everyone has a well-oiled satiety meter. Having said that, given the numerous clinical trials and anecdotal evidence (n=1 testimonials) regarding spontaneous caloric reduction with a low carb diet, "on average" I think what I said holds water. Anyway, thanks for the comment. No disagreement from me. Cheers :-)

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 25, 2011
at 05:50 PM

would imply that all people have to worry about how much water they drink all the time.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on April 25, 2011
at 03:07 PM

Aravind I agree with you but would take issue with the assertion in your comment "But you would be going past the point of satiety to do so." While it seems for many people satiety matches up well with caloric needs that is not true for everyone. I think many women especially seem to only be satiated at a higher level than their needs. Perhaps this is a result of prior chronic dieting? I don't know. I just think it's dangerous to assert that the satiety meter for everyone is well-calibrated or perfectly functioning.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 25, 2011
at 05:45 PM

IV. Some people may be further damaged, and have to eat LC and consciously eat to less than satiety - probably because of persistent leptin resistance. Such people, in their frustration, may then speculate that categories I-III don't exist. It is not fair, but these people may be stuck with being food conscious forever, like alcoholics who can't avoid the drink without daily AA meetings. It's not their fault. But the existence of such people doesn't prove that CICO is the only thing we can say about fat loss, anymore than the existence of people with diabetes insipidus...

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 25, 2011
at 05:45 PM

III. Some metabolically damaged people may be so metabolically deranged that they must always eat a particular diet, say low carbohydrate diet, in order to maintain weight. Otherwise, they gain.

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on April 25, 2011
at 04:08 PM

Same here Melissa. Once in a while I let myself "eat until I'm done" And a few hours later, I almost always decide it was too much.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 25, 2011
at 05:50 PM

...would imply that all people have to worry about how much water they drink al the time.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 25, 2011
at 05:44 PM

I.Normal weight people eating a healthy whole foods diet don't need to do anything - their weight is spontaneously regulated with zero conscious thought the same way their breathing and thier thirst are regulated, They don't accidentaly die of cerebral edema from polydypsia, nor do they die of dehydration because they forget to drink enough. If the brain and gut and liver are as unbroken as the kidneys, no conscious thought need be given to the weight or energy content of food, ever.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 25, 2011
at 05:44 PM

@Melissa - I am going to post a few snippets from something Kurt Harris wrote on another blog. It is a bit long so I will split into a couple different comments. The key message is that perhaps our experiences are different because of the extent of metabolic damage prior to ditching the SAD. Food for thought, pun intended :-)

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on April 25, 2011
at 04:48 PM

@Melissa/Todd - In those situations where you feel you have overeaten in hindsight, what was the impact to your consumption in the next meal? The reason I ask is because my own experience has been that I tend to under consume in the next meal. Therefore across several meals, the satiety meter tends to work. Cheers!

4
667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on April 25, 2011
at 02:38 PM

Calories count, period. I have put on approximately 15 pounds of weight (prolly 75% of which is muscle, the rest fat) eating strict paleo. In fact, for three months of that I was eating nothing but animal products (no dairy though).

You can put on weight by eating a whole lot OF ANY SUBSTANCE.

The important point is only that that threshold point of the amount of calories that is above maintenance is going to be lower when carbohydrates enter the picture. With only protein and fat in the diet you simply get more leeway. But you will most definitely still gain weight if you eat 7,000 calories of coconut oil and ribeye. Try it.

Proof is in the pudding, and it took me a bunch of self-experimentation to really believe this. I read GCBC thoroughly and come from a WAP background.

Try it out:

1) try eating only oatmeal or some other bad food but only in the 1500 calorie range. You will lose weight.

2) on the other hand, try eating huge amounts of fat and protein, way above maintenance like in the 4000-5000 cals range. You most definitly WILL gain weight.

In the end we see that alas moderation in quantity is STILL A FACTOR. Not the most important, but totally relevant.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on April 25, 2011
at 03:00 PM

Great answer, Ben! I think most proponents of unweighed/unmeasured are counting on people's natural ability to stop eating when full. Some people just aren't good at that, so counting can be necessary in order to reach our goals.

A64ed062eb5e2c3407122fcf16c5de6b

(715)

on August 27, 2011
at 12:13 PM

How about this then, "Unless your metabolism is damaged, counting calories is a waste of time". Of course, most people worrying about counting calories probably have damaged metabolisms ;-)

3
9f9fa49265e03ddd2bf2bba5477a556b

(3184)

on April 15, 2011
at 08:07 PM

http://www.byebyecarbs.com/about/energy-medicine/

This Greg Ellis?

Umm, yeah, I think whatever he says automatically gets disqualified on account of him being a complete lunatic. Homeopathic products are purely energy? WTF? Homeopathic products are water. The end. Should I even get into his autism lunacy? Vaccines? Really? We're stil on that? Gee, it has nothing to do with the kids getting an imbalance of n-6 fats while in utero and during development, screwing up brain development? Yep, I'm sure it is the vaccines and the energy.

The guy goes from a PhD in physiology to believing in energy medicine and homeopathy? He probably has a brain tumor or had a cerebral infarc. Leading causes of magical thinking among former scientists. That, or they're cynically trying to make money off people.

Ac9425a387b78cb37a01972fe848bddb

(655)

on April 16, 2011
at 05:31 PM

Have you actually seen his videos other than Homeopathic ones? He's been saying the same thing all the new low carber/paleo crowd has been saying for years before them. I would give him at least some credibility even if ou don't agree with his Homeopathic views. You cannot buy a Phd physiology.

1
21e8ad2e1dcdb3a7c439b261f7efd9f0

on April 25, 2011
at 05:31 AM

I found him intriguing. Boght his 2 books and I'm going through them right now. There is definitely value in them.

1
D6fb0306dae1763f4c18c7314fb786cc

on April 15, 2011
at 07:44 PM

Great answer, Aravind. And Robb Wolf has also recommended to people that they reduce calories to lose weight if they're not as active - using himself as an example in the last podcast.

Greg Ellis's discussion with Jimmy Moore in the recent Livin' La Vida Low-Carb was great - nice that someone's been working on this so long and is here to help out some of the newer scientists who are working on the problem of the high-carb low-fat diets.

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