0

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Weak Bones

Commented on October 09, 2013
Created October 08, 2013 at 10:16 PM

Is it possible to have good serum calcium and vitamin D levels and weak bones?

I've been paleo for a couple years and have always had decent serum calcium and good vitamin D levels.

Broke a bone today doing something that should never have broken a bone.

I also squat and deadflift. Play lots of sports. I'm under 30.

Be803dcde63e3cf5e21cc121097b8158

(529)

on October 09, 2013
at 11:06 PM

I have no doubt of MK4's effectiveness, I just don't think that it's the preferred form to supplement for most people. I came to that conclusion after a review of the literature. Dr. Rheaume-Bleue's 2011 book, which inspired me to start supplementing K2, actually promotes MK4, But research in this area is moving very fast.

D05f3050dc3d973b8b81a876202fa99a

(1533)

on October 09, 2013
at 10:36 PM

Thanks everyone! Have ordered that product and another vitamin K supplement to add to the regime. I eat tons of carrots so I hope I'm covered on vitamin A. I supplement with magnesium in several ways.

D05f3050dc3d973b8b81a876202fa99a

(1533)

on October 09, 2013
at 10:34 PM

I do eat grass fed beef, but the eggs are questionable.

0ba891d22837788c4d5ccf3f33f60329

(30)

on October 09, 2013
at 04:36 PM

Look up the paper "vitamin K and the prevention of fractures: Systemic review and meta analysis of randomized controlled trials" to read about a few of these MK4 studies.

0ba891d22837788c4d5ccf3f33f60329

(30)

on October 09, 2013
at 04:28 PM

K2 MK4 supplements have massively prevented fracture rates in multiple randomized, controlled trials. Has MK7 been shown to do that? Not as far as I know.

2a6025992746ff6cd4ffb6ccf0aa03fc

(60)

on October 09, 2013
at 08:41 AM

Fair enough. There have been a lot of studies showing that high doses of MK4 do help, so I don't think you'd actually be doing anything wrong by taking it. Maybe MK7 will prove to be better, but at the moment MK4 still does look pretty good. And of course, it's good to get stuff straight from the diet.

Personally I take a simple MK4 supplement. You are right that the Super K formula is quite expensive - mine is definitely much cheaper! But I know the super K formula has both forms, which is why I mentioned it.

Be803dcde63e3cf5e21cc121097b8158

(529)

on October 09, 2013
at 07:06 AM

I've actually used that product in the past; it's quite a bit more expensive than straight MK-7. If you're willing to do a bit of digging, you'll find a lot of research concerning MK-7/natto and bone health. Also, it's possible that MK-7 converts to MK-4 in the body. (This has been shown in rats.) It's not that MK-4 is any less beneficial, it's that it's hard to come by in diet, may be less useful in synthetic form and has to be taken every couple of hours for a therapeutic effect.

Be803dcde63e3cf5e21cc121097b8158

(529)

on October 09, 2013
at 05:48 AM

The MK-4 in supplements is synthetic with a short half life, whereas MK-7 is usually extracted from natto (soy) and provides a greater therapeutic effect. MK-4 from diet (grassfed animal products) would be good though.

D05f3050dc3d973b8b81a876202fa99a

(1533)

on October 08, 2013
at 10:47 PM

Thanks, going to start supplementing in addition to the eggs I eat.

Be803dcde63e3cf5e21cc121097b8158

(529)

on October 08, 2013
at 10:46 PM

Also, I'm not sure of the K2 levels found in the beef and eggs you are eating (depends highly on the animal feed), but it seems that everyone who promotes K2 is either eating natto or supplementing, which leads me to believe that it's quite difficult to reach an optimum level of K2.

Be803dcde63e3cf5e21cc121097b8158

(529)

on October 08, 2013
at 10:38 PM

If you're not eating high K2 foods nor supplementing, then you're likely below optimal (as most everyone is these days). You can have great calcium and D levels, but this is, according to Rheaume-Bleue, quite dangerous. If your K2 is low, calcium can deposit in soft tissues and joints.

D05f3050dc3d973b8b81a876202fa99a

(1533)

on October 08, 2013
at 10:27 PM

I googled sources. I eat a good amount of eggs and ground beef.

If you were deficient in K2, your serum calcium could still be good?

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3 Answers

0
2a6025992746ff6cd4ffb6ccf0aa03fc

on October 09, 2013
at 06:05 AM

Grr, can't reply directly to you @Mr_Snowman for some reason, hope you see this: I had heard that all of the studies on k2 and bone health were done with MK4 supplementation. In any case, the supplement I linked to above contains both. I am less thrilled that it contains k1, but I think the k2 balance is pretty good.

Be803dcde63e3cf5e21cc121097b8158

(529)

on October 09, 2013
at 07:06 AM

I've actually used that product in the past; it's quite a bit more expensive than straight MK-7. If you're willing to do a bit of digging, you'll find a lot of research concerning MK-7/natto and bone health. Also, it's possible that MK-7 converts to MK-4 in the body. (This has been shown in rats.) It's not that MK-4 is any less beneficial, it's that it's hard to come by in diet, may be less useful in synthetic form and has to be taken every couple of hours for a therapeutic effect.

0
2a6025992746ff6cd4ffb6ccf0aa03fc

on October 09, 2013
at 04:39 AM

It's not just vitamin D and calcium for bones. I believe you also need A, K2 and magnesium. Contrary to Mr Snowman above, I had heard that the MK4 is the best form of K2. The Life Extension Super K supplement has k2 in numerous forms so that may be a good choice: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CGQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lef.org%2FVitamins-Supplements%2FItem01724%2FSuper-K-with-Advanced-K2-Complex.html&ei=udxUUoqUGsLWrQfKwYDYCQ&usg=AFQjCNHGODbtvUXpJV3bm3__HjpJW59G7Q&sig2=LF_JtuE1Eguy8YiDpq1Tvw&bvm=bv.53760139,d.bmk&cad=rjt

Be803dcde63e3cf5e21cc121097b8158

(529)

on October 09, 2013
at 05:48 AM

The MK-4 in supplements is synthetic with a short half life, whereas MK-7 is usually extracted from natto (soy) and provides a greater therapeutic effect. MK-4 from diet (grassfed animal products) would be good though.

0ba891d22837788c4d5ccf3f33f60329

(30)

on October 09, 2013
at 04:28 PM

K2 MK4 supplements have massively prevented fracture rates in multiple randomized, controlled trials. Has MK7 been shown to do that? Not as far as I know.

0ba891d22837788c4d5ccf3f33f60329

(30)

on October 09, 2013
at 04:36 PM

Look up the paper "vitamin K and the prevention of fractures: Systemic review and meta analysis of randomized controlled trials" to read about a few of these MK4 studies.

D05f3050dc3d973b8b81a876202fa99a

(1533)

on October 09, 2013
at 10:36 PM

Thanks everyone! Have ordered that product and another vitamin K supplement to add to the regime. I eat tons of carrots so I hope I'm covered on vitamin A. I supplement with magnesium in several ways.

0
Be803dcde63e3cf5e21cc121097b8158

on October 08, 2013
at 10:24 PM

Calcium and vitamin D need K2 to build healthy bones.

An entire book was written about it: Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox by Dr. Rheaume-Bleue.

In short, supplement K2 MK-7, or learn how to eat natto.

D05f3050dc3d973b8b81a876202fa99a

(1533)

on October 08, 2013
at 10:27 PM

I googled sources. I eat a good amount of eggs and ground beef.

If you were deficient in K2, your serum calcium could still be good?

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