5

votes

But is it paleo ?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created August 03, 2012 at 2:39 AM

I found myself puzzled by the majority of responses in a recent question on controlling anxiety and have to ask:

How is it "paleo" to be prescribing magnesium and other supplementation to address anxiety?

[Incidentally there is only pre-clinical (animal research) evidence to date to support that magnesium is better than placebo.]

In my view, if indeed there is a (correctly diagnosed) nutritional deficiency then the "paleo" method should ideally be to address with a whole food and/or activity prior to resorting to supplementation.

For example, a vit D deficiency can be addressed by eating salmon (whole food) and/or exposure to sun (activity).

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 15, 2012
at 02:23 PM

A quest for knowledge.

Eed7dabde3d61910685845e04605267f

(2934)

on November 15, 2012
at 01:08 PM

nope, just expressing my opinion on this. Note that I've actually answered your question. Care to answer mine? What is you rationale behind constant edits?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 15, 2012
at 12:43 PM

Are you my personal self-appointed sheriff, Michael? Seriously.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 04, 2012
at 11:46 PM

I suppose you could spin this in a paleo way...obsessions like these are like primitive belief in the power of magic, or the modern findings on placebo effects. Paleo pundits such as Sisson and Kruse have almost shamanistic power over their little flocks. There's the shame of ostracism for those that won't believe in the fish oil, or bacon and egg buffets, or magnesium, or whatever. Tribal wars break out...downvotes result...

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on August 04, 2012
at 03:57 AM

Clearly this "discussion group" is, or has evolved to be, more than that Harry... based on the Questions people have and the answers they are receiving...

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 04, 2012
at 02:24 AM

+1 for bringing this up, and I'd give you +10 for what you got in response. How much happiness does eating a supplement bring? Will it give you a kiss at night? Were paleos as analytical as all that? Did it matter that they lived to 87 instead of 86?

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 04, 2012
at 02:02 AM

In a house? Take your fish outside.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on August 04, 2012
at 01:52 AM

For some of us, the amount of sun we'd have to expose ourselves to in order to get enough Vitamin D is also enough to give us skin cancer. So in a lot of cases, a dual approach is best.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on August 04, 2012
at 01:43 AM

I'd guess you are both taking the extreme side in those comments. Should we treat radiation sickness with liver? No. But should we prescribe supplements as a first line of defense? No. How about something reasonable like, "Maybe your Vitamin Blah is a little low. Try boosting your Vitamin Blah intake with such-n-such foods, and if that doesn't provide relief then try a supplement" is more along the lines of what most PHers are going for.

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on August 03, 2012
at 10:01 PM

Mick - you owe no apologies or explanations. I hope that the supplements have helped you. Look into PharmaGaba by Thorne if you need more support and the supps don't do it. Good stuff for increasing Gaba.

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on August 03, 2012
at 09:59 PM

lol. Seriously! There is no solution or treatment for the level of radiation exposure at Chernobyl etc.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 03, 2012
at 08:32 PM

@ Dave: what would your recommendation be for radiation exposure?

6d06945c5244687be2f6a9ca731b9cc6

(405)

on August 03, 2012
at 07:25 PM

Unfortunately, not everything is solved by exercise, either. I'm speaking from personal experience here, but when I was having anxiety attacks I avoided exercise like the plague. The sensation of a rapid heartbeat made me extremely uncomfortable and after exercise, my heart palpitations would usually increase. Supplementing helped, whether by purported 'placebo effect' or otherwise.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on August 03, 2012
at 02:14 PM

So, for acute radiation exposure, like Three Mile Island or Chernobyl, your recommendation would be what? Eat more liver?

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 03, 2012
at 02:12 PM

I like Carlson's Solar D Gems. They are cheap on iherb and available in 2000 and 4000 IU gel caps in a cod liver oil base.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 03, 2012
at 11:18 AM

I agree with your rationale - if it provides a benefit then it doesn't matter whether it is canonical paleo (whatever that is) or not. But if the aim of this discussion group is to offer advice based on ancestral diet and activity patterns then I think it's a cop out to suggest taking a supplement (for which there is no clinical evidence in any case).

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 03, 2012
at 11:07 AM

could be confused for homeopathyhacks or alternativemedicinehacks

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 03, 2012
at 11:04 AM

@ Mick Jagger: not everything is solved by eating something. how about activity? in the case of anxiety for example, exercise would be beneficial

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 03, 2012
at 11:03 AM

@ Crowlover: i'm not on a paleo diet - at least i dont think i am by some of the standards discussed here. what i am on is based on an understanding of ancestral diet and activity and an attempt to apply them rationally in a modern world

6d06945c5244687be2f6a9ca731b9cc6

(405)

on August 03, 2012
at 08:33 AM

.. Also, I'm pretty sure supplements are a LOT more paleo than benzodiazepines, MAOIs and SSRIs.

6d06945c5244687be2f6a9ca731b9cc6

(405)

on August 03, 2012
at 08:30 AM

Call it un-paleo, but when you have scary, disabling panic attacks to the point where you're sure you'll be driven to insanity, it's much easier to swallow a few capsules than to meticulously plan out your meals--and it's kind of hard to get enough sunshine when you can't even bring yourself to leave your house.

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on August 03, 2012
at 07:23 AM

@ Dragonfly - what D3 supplement do you recommend? Thanks.

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on August 03, 2012
at 06:29 AM

its as if many people on this site forget that the world we live in is not the same as it was during Paleolithic times! This is the 21st century remember and the world is very toxic.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 03, 2012
at 04:45 AM

Its pretty hard to get water with magnesium in it, which is how paleo folks would have gotten most of theres. Of course some of the expensive european mineral waters cut the mustard mag wise, but its not like food sourced magnesium will do the job every time. Didnt for me, I ate plenty of food sourced magnesium. Still I get your point for most stuff, like basic vitamins. The body is supposed to run pretty well on its own, given the right inputs. Some people supplement like mad things.

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on August 03, 2012
at 04:44 AM

Harry what is your vitamin D level? Has a Paleo diet cured you of any and all medical/health related issues? Also if you need to have research to back up all your decisions than why are you on a Paleo diet? An evidenced based approach and common sense is good enough for me.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 03, 2012
at 03:40 AM

Not to mention that you would be risking mercury poisoning with the amount of salmon you would have to eat each day to get sufficient D from food alone.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 03, 2012
at 03:39 AM

legup~ Yes it does. http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/about-vitamin-d/how-to-get-your-vitamin-d/uvb-exposure-sunlight-and-indoor-tanning/

41dfb1a4fecb38d24075ff52f13ccb28

on August 03, 2012
at 03:32 AM

+1 I hear ya on the vitamin D + PacNW.

1096aa84d006fe967128ffbd37e8070e

(1002)

on August 03, 2012
at 03:24 AM

I am a PNWer and just started supplementing 2 months ago with D3 and magnesium to see if I can control my mild psoriasis....spoke to a friend in San Diego (my homeland) who said he is D3 deficient too, despite pretty regular exposure. Does our ability to absorb sunlight decrease with age?? He's an old dog...

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on August 03, 2012
at 02:53 AM

I am glad someone is bringing this up. I feel the same way, that the paleo solution should be a whole foods approach.

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7 Answers

8
Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 03, 2012
at 03:17 AM

"Paleo" recommendations will only get you so far, when many of us are living in a very different environments/latitudes from the one in which our ancestors evolved.

Sufficient Magnesium is challenging to get from food/water sources because of environmental depletion/phytic acid inhibiting absorption, hence the supplement recommendation.

My n=1 evidence is that 150-250 mg of supplemental Magnesium before bed gives me a really good night's sleep. It's also needed as a co-factor for D3.

Supplementing D3 got rid of my SAD symptoms when I was living in the Pac NW, where it is near impossible to get enough D3 from sun exposure due to latitude. My fair husband was also tested as very deficient, despite lots of shirt-off hiking year-round. More info at www.vitamindcouncil.org

And FYI, some of us are too old, dark-complected or vain(!) to make enough D3 from sun exposure. I live in Santa Fe, NM at 7,000 feet and eat salmon twice a week, sun in a bikini for 1/2 hour a day between 10-2 (all I can do with the heat.) I stopped supplementing at the end of April and I just tested 40 ng/ml lower than when I was supplementing.

41dfb1a4fecb38d24075ff52f13ccb28

on August 03, 2012
at 03:32 AM

+1 I hear ya on the vitamin D + PacNW.

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on August 03, 2012
at 07:23 AM

@ Dragonfly - what D3 supplement do you recommend? Thanks.

1096aa84d006fe967128ffbd37e8070e

(1002)

on August 03, 2012
at 03:24 AM

I am a PNWer and just started supplementing 2 months ago with D3 and magnesium to see if I can control my mild psoriasis....spoke to a friend in San Diego (my homeland) who said he is D3 deficient too, despite pretty regular exposure. Does our ability to absorb sunlight decrease with age?? He's an old dog...

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 03, 2012
at 02:12 PM

I like Carlson's Solar D Gems. They are cheap on iherb and available in 2000 and 4000 IU gel caps in a cod liver oil base.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 03, 2012
at 03:39 AM

legup~ Yes it does. http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/about-vitamin-d/how-to-get-your-vitamin-d/uvb-exposure-sunlight-and-indoor-tanning/

7
41dfb1a4fecb38d24075ff52f13ccb28

on August 03, 2012
at 03:30 AM

Well, there are other factors involved. What if you live in a house where no one except you eats fish, and even you who does eat fish gets nauseous at the smell of cooking salmon. And, you can't afford to spend money on two dinners. And on top of that, the place you live in only gets some sun around 3 months out of the year, and the rest of the year it's solid gray cloud cover. So no matter how much you would love to bask in the sun, you can't. It's just not there.

In that case, it's more efficient to supplement with vitamin d. Is supplementing with vitamin d paleo? Probably not, but it helps immensely.

If I lived somewhere else where there was sun, would I supplement with vitamin d? No. It's situational.

While yes, whole foods for everything would be great, we all have our own personal challenges to deal with. And, for some, that involves the use of supplementation to get us over that hill. I think the end goal here is health, and if some choose to use supplementation to hit that goal post, I don't see any problem with it.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on August 03, 2012
at 03:40 AM

Not to mention that you would be risking mercury poisoning with the amount of salmon you would have to eat each day to get sufficient D from food alone.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 04, 2012
at 02:02 AM

In a house? Take your fish outside.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on August 04, 2012
at 01:52 AM

For some of us, the amount of sun we'd have to expose ourselves to in order to get enough Vitamin D is also enough to give us skin cancer. So in a lot of cases, a dual approach is best.

6
7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on October 23, 2012
at 02:09 PM

I'm really only here to find what "works." I'm not trying to join a cult with rules and demogoguery.

I think most people would agree food source is the desired resource and if it's more helpful to that person's individual circumstances then supplementation is the alternative.

This is not a HUGE issue in my opinion.

3
Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 04, 2012
at 01:57 AM

Today I dodged three cars. The rush. Outside, warm and sunny, heart beating. Later on still alive some fish and more coffee.

That's paleo for me. It's not recreating Grok. It's just life in motion. It's interesting that I also treated a vitamin D deficiency without taking a supplement.

But then that was never the point.

2
7fd66706a1bb1d5612dbb166ff98a708

on August 03, 2012
at 03:18 AM

This may just be the hacker in me talking (and I think we're in the right place for that), but paleo, primal, what-have you is a great library to borrow from, and the general guidelines have benefited me immensely, but if there are additional things I can do to tweak (and there are, and I do), or more efficient ways to get the benefits of paleo without having to accept it all part-and-parcel, I'll do that to. If bioavailability isn't compromised by the supplements in question, why not do it that way?

tl;dr; Is it paleo? Who cares? This is paleohacks, not paleostrictadherence .

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 03, 2012
at 11:07 AM

could be confused for homeopathyhacks or alternativemedicinehacks

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 03, 2012
at 11:18 AM

I agree with your rationale - if it provides a benefit then it doesn't matter whether it is canonical paleo (whatever that is) or not. But if the aim of this discussion group is to offer advice based on ancestral diet and activity patterns then I think it's a cop out to suggest taking a supplement (for which there is no clinical evidence in any case).

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on August 04, 2012
at 03:57 AM

Clearly this "discussion group" is, or has evolved to be, more than that Harry... based on the Questions people have and the answers they are receiving...

1
Eed7dabde3d61910685845e04605267f

on November 15, 2012
at 12:24 PM

Like others have said wregarding your other threads Harry, can you please let it go and let a thread run a 'natural course'? If you want exposure for your questions, viewpoints, genefuel business or whatever there has to be a better-spirited way than constantly bumping your posts with non-edits. Seriously.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 15, 2012
at 12:43 PM

Are you my personal self-appointed sheriff, Michael? Seriously.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 15, 2012
at 02:23 PM

A quest for knowledge.

Eed7dabde3d61910685845e04605267f

(2934)

on November 15, 2012
at 01:08 PM

nope, just expressing my opinion on this. Note that I've actually answered your question. Care to answer mine? What is you rationale behind constant edits?

1
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 04, 2012
at 01:33 AM

I would have expected at least some attempt at more creative problem solving strategies other than prescribing supplements - many of which have no effect other than to enrich urine.

The comment, "So, for acute radiation exposure, like Three Mile Island or Chernobyl, your recommendation would be what? Eat more liver?" missed the point entirely but was particularly telling as it was - surprisingly - representative of the consensus.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 04, 2012
at 11:46 PM

I suppose you could spin this in a paleo way...obsessions like these are like primitive belief in the power of magic, or the modern findings on placebo effects. Paleo pundits such as Sisson and Kruse have almost shamanistic power over their little flocks. There's the shame of ostracism for those that won't believe in the fish oil, or bacon and egg buffets, or magnesium, or whatever. Tribal wars break out...downvotes result...

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on August 04, 2012
at 01:43 AM

I'd guess you are both taking the extreme side in those comments. Should we treat radiation sickness with liver? No. But should we prescribe supplements as a first line of defense? No. How about something reasonable like, "Maybe your Vitamin Blah is a little low. Try boosting your Vitamin Blah intake with such-n-such foods, and if that doesn't provide relief then try a supplement" is more along the lines of what most PHers are going for.

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