1

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Paleo Baby and Breastfeeding

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created December 30, 2010 at 12:38 PM

Ok, so I feel a little funny asking this question, but I know there is a lot to be learned from other's experiences, so here goes.

My wife and I are expecting our son to be born anytime, so it's an exciting and crazy-feeling time right now. She plans to breastfeed up to six months if all goes well, and I am thankful for her willingness to do this.

If breastfeeding does not go well (or does not happen at all, for whatver reason), we are thinking we would like to make our own formula for the baby. Does anyone here have experience with this? I have my own copy of Nourishing Traditions at home and have read their formula recipes. My wife is nervous about using raw milk for baby formula, and she thinks the liver-based formula will just be too gross for the baby (We've discussed this many times, but there is no changing her mind:)

Are there any paleo parents out there that made their own formula for their baby?

28f280f8d64c7207fd94d158fbe6e070

(218)

on February 23, 2012
at 04:04 PM

Do. Not. Approach a standard nutritionist to ask about your baby's needs. Do your own research. If you are in the paleo community you know how far off schools of nutrition can be from good health. This is your BABY we are talking about. I love my old pediatrician. He's seen everything. But i love him only for his medical school + decades of treating sick kids, NOT FOR HIS NUTRITIONAL KNOWLEDGE. He would probably throw us out of his practice if he knew we were feeding her a raw cows milk formula.

28f280f8d64c7207fd94d158fbe6e070

(218)

on February 23, 2012
at 04:00 PM

Three things wrong with breast milk banks: 1) expensive 2) they destroy the milk by pasteurizing it. 3) you have zero control over what the mama eats. She could be eating the SAD and many ingredients you do not wish in your newborn's body. The growth of a human in the first year is the most growth we will ever do. Their nutrition seriously becomes them. I trust a grass fed, overregulated raw milk dairy over "some lactating woman."

28f280f8d64c7207fd94d158fbe6e070

(218)

on February 23, 2012
at 03:53 PM

There must be a lot of people secretly using this WAPformula, because when you query up one of the ingredients from either amazon or iherb, the others come up as suggestions. You have to make your own whey but it's simply leaving raw milk out on the counter for some days. Raw milk doesn't "spoil" like pasteurized does.

6a92040024fa2930264448d65ad5e1d9

(50)

on January 11, 2012
at 09:05 AM

Nancy, Thank you for your post. I have been formula feeding my son and it grosses me out. I saw the same recipe on the Weston A Price website too, but I wonder (and perhaps you can help out) where do you get all the ingredients? I think htere is a local dairy that sells Raw milk where I live, but the other stuff? and how long does it last for what cost? My husband and I are both college students on a little/no income (not that the price of feeding our baby isn't worth it, it is, there is just no money) My son drinks about 32 oz a day. (he is over 14 lbs at 2.5 months.)

6a92040024fa2930264448d65ad5e1d9

(50)

on January 11, 2012
at 08:56 AM

That's kind of harsh Ashley. I have three children, my first I breastfed until 5 months when my milk supply was totally dried up. I didn't even know that could happen. I spent two weeks with a screaming baby trying to nurse and console around the clock before I realized I had no milk (I could never get anymore than a few drops even using a commercial grade medela pump) My second I breastfed two months before stopping due to severe depression, my third is almost 3 months old and I can't BF due to antidepressants. lighten up. Everyone has a different situation.

306aa57660d911781231f8090c2a5619

(3808)

on January 03, 2012
at 05:44 PM

You went into it fully intending to breastfeed, place value on breastfeeding well beyond a bare minimum, and worked hard to try to get breastfeeding to work. I don't think anyone is bashing people who *need* to use formula. The OP just seems to be going into the process with an "Oh well, if it doesn't go smoothly we'll just use formula" attitude, which is a setup for failure. It doesn't go perfectly smoothly for a lot of people, but the problems are often (though not always) solvable. In any case, the question for this particular paleobaby is over and done with, since it was due a year ago.

C0fcb48d7da4f76fac17318efd2cd6b8

(4069)

on January 03, 2012
at 06:30 AM

I breast fed for six months, and then one day my son bit me and he never breastfed again. My husband was up all night, cooking and grinding chicken soup, and my son thrived on solid food from that point on. He also *never* drank from a bottle- only a cup, and never used a pacifier. We never "made" him do anything, it was all him, with us adapting. He is now a strapping 6' 1" 27 year old- 160 pounds, strong, smart, and I say handsome.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on January 03, 2012
at 06:06 AM

If she is concerned about milk supply placenta encapsulation can help provide milk promoting hormones.

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on January 03, 2012
at 05:58 AM

Not everyone works a job that suits pumping. I somehow don't think we're all envisioning poor working class moms...

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on January 03, 2012
at 05:57 AM

I sure hope anyone male with that attitude is an incredibly diligent user of condoms and a complete willingness to put his money where his mouth is. The reality is that not everyone has this privilege to long term BF. Instead of shaming the failures, let's support the attempts.

4d6aa1a676240b15dc569ff8ade0500f

(2546)

on January 02, 2012
at 08:55 PM

this comment was simply unnecessarily obnoxious.

Medium avatar

(12379)

on June 13, 2011
at 05:28 PM

I agree with you - not everyone can breastfeed - but being comfortable and relaxed and able to accept help really can make a difference. With my little guy and weaning - I offered daily for months and he was not interested - so it was the right time for him. I think that it is cultural for sure - but I am not going to stress about it - he'a a thriving healthy 2 year old and there is SO much in life to stress about!

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on June 13, 2011
at 02:57 AM

Human milk banks generally won't sell to a healthy 6 month old and it's 3-4 dollars an ounce. Most babies drink about 25-30 oz (I think) by 6 months. You do the math There are milk sharing websites like hm4hb.com but that's sharing between individual women and most women will only share their milk with truly needy people who are unable to nurse. Not someone unwilling to put the work in to pump at work.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on June 13, 2011
at 12:11 AM

This isn't the feel good forum. If someone came in here satin they were planning on eating 50% paleo and 50% McDonald no one would say "oh, at least you are trying." I have all the love in my heart for moms who have a hard time with nursing but I agree with Travis even if I don't agree with his callousness. Pumping while working is possible and anyone who cares about their baby's health should make it a priority. I know plenty of moms who do. My mom in the early 80's pumped for all 3 of my siblings and I or a year and she was a corporate shark back then and had to do it in bathrooms.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on June 13, 2011
at 12:04 AM

I agree with the Dr. Newman videos advice. They are amazingly helpful with learning a good latch.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on June 13, 2011
at 12:03 AM

Ewww I would never give a child that overly pocessed crap when there are milk sharing groups, home made formula, and milk Banks.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on June 12, 2011
at 11:53 PM

Try to help her breastfeed exclusively. Formula should only be an emergency thing. I only used it when I didn't have any pumped or enough pumped and it was absolutely necessary. Which has only come up twice. Traditional cultures often let mom and baby stay in bed together for 2 weeks! So they can do nothing but nurse and sleep. Make sure she's well nourished and well hydrated. Breastfeeding is natural and insufficient mammary tissue is incredibly rare. Our culture sabotages nursing mothers with stigma, bad maternity leave, and ridiculous nutrition advice. You can over come.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on June 12, 2011
at 11:48 PM

I totally agree, ambi.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on June 12, 2011
at 11:47 PM

I do have a baby, and because of my csection my milk came in late and we had a few issues. I was committed to breastfeeding, though and pumped around the clock, every 2 hours for almost a week until my supply was up. I have a friend who dis it for almost a month and a half before she was able to bread feed exclusively. I'm sorry, but unless you have a serious medical excuse, I'm going to judge anyone who doesn't choose to breastfeed. What's the point of all this paleo stuff if we don't even give a crap about our kid's diet and health. It's incredibly important and most problems can be overcome

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on June 12, 2011
at 11:42 PM

You can use non-homogenized, low temp pasteurized milk and bring it back to life with Pima or kefir culture. That's in the NT book. I've used the formula a few times with my son because although I have plentiful breast milk, my breasts hate pumps. It takes me over an hour to just get 4-5 oz. He did fine with the formula. I didn't use raw milk though, I used local vat pasteurized milk. I don't trust raw milk for newborns either.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on June 12, 2011
at 10:45 PM

Human milk banks generally won't sell to people who have healthy children over the age of 3 months. It's much easier to get it from a milk share network. Human Milk for Human babies is one http://www.hm4hb.net/ and milkshare is another http://milkshare.birthingforlife.com/

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on June 12, 2011
at 08:19 PM

That is, 6 months should be a lower limit, not an upper limit.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on June 12, 2011
at 08:16 PM

Wow, because anyone who understands the detriments of not breastfeeding tries to nurse for *at least* six months.

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on June 12, 2011
at 08:05 PM

Great information Lurene. Aaron, children should ideally be breastfed *at least* two years. Based on a number of markers, it appears that a biologically appropriate age of weaning for human infants is 2-7 years. In traditional cultures, 2 years is definitely on the young side for weaning.

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on June 12, 2011
at 08:01 PM

1)Being relaxed and flexible are key, but it doesn't workout just because moms and babies are. Because it's not something women grow up with, they simply aren't familiar with the ins and outs of nursing and there are frequently very real problems that need solving. 2)Baby led cessation of nursing prior to 12 months is considered a 'nursing strike' rather than 'self weaning'. Biologically appropriate ages of weaning are considered to be between 2 and 7 years of age based on available anthropological evidence: http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detwean.html

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on June 12, 2011
at 07:57 PM

I do think that most are unaware of just how risky formula actually is and the tremendous toll (financially, physically and ito mental health) that it takes on public health. Remember, breastfeeding *does not* have benefits - formula feeding has risks. Significant ones. Having said that, there are appropriate uses for it and I'm glad it's there when I need it (when working with a mom who is struggling with nursing) I just wish it wasn't considered such an acceptable, normal alternative as truly neither of those things.

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on June 12, 2011
at 07:54 PM

2-7 years appears to be the range for a biologically appropriate age of weaning: http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detwean.html

1fc9c11cf23b2f62ac78979de933ad83

(2435)

on May 05, 2011
at 01:45 AM

I had an awful time nursing mt first daughter. I stuck with it and was able to get her a latch with a nipple shield after about a week of her practically starving. I understand how hard it can be, but if you try your hardest and stick with it long enough to make it work, it can be rewarding. I ended up losing the nipple shield at 4 months and nursing her until she was 2 and I was pregnant again.

Dd78061776671a12054e17c660aee14a

(259)

on January 06, 2011
at 11:39 PM

Since when is the loss of a mother "simple?" I am blessed to still have a mother, but I have lost a child, and I can tell you that there is nothing simple about it.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on January 06, 2011
at 07:46 PM

Your vitriol aside, I find the supposition that a simple loss of the mother could result in the production of milk by a male to be quite interesting, even if patently false. I suppose a case of male galactorrhoea could coincide with a birth of a child and thus give this impression.

27a29804a79e90f5b8193ea33f392852

(227)

on January 06, 2011
at 07:12 PM

"Maybe you can be the wet-nurse for BobbyD's child if you care about their business so much." LOL I think that's a great idea Heather!

Dd78061776671a12054e17c660aee14a

(259)

on January 06, 2011
at 05:36 PM

Thanks for your reply! Actually, there is a farm just a few miles from where we live where I can get raw goats milk. Hopefully it won't be needed for many months, but we just have to wait and see.

9722850c9a1c47b79edf7c4233040248

(1276)

on January 06, 2011
at 04:26 PM

Travis, you're a man, right? Did you know that it's possible for men to lactate with the right supplementation and/or emotional upheavals (as in his wife dying in childbirth or being particularly worried about a baby's health)? I don't want to hear you bitch until you've had a child attached to your man-tits for 2-3 years. Maybe you can be the wet-nurse for BobbyD's child if you care about their business so much.

Dd78061776671a12054e17c660aee14a

(259)

on January 04, 2011
at 12:10 PM

Should my wife also walk a mile from home so she can deliver the baby unassisted into a small hole she dug and lined with leaves? If you read the original question, I was asking if anyone had experiences with homemade formula. My wife will be going back to work part-time and we know eventually she will stop pumping and that we will be feeding the baby formula. Will that be after 6 months? After 9? I don't know, I'm just trying to be prepared. If you have nothing helpful to add, please take your ignorance elsewhere.

1cbb6b2a813475d6c0b17fd5e898dc50

(1248)

on January 03, 2011
at 11:48 AM

I was also under the impression that children should "idealy" be brestfed for 2 years because of the awesome nutrition of the milk.

5740abb0fa033403978dd988b0609dfd

(2633)

on December 30, 2010
at 08:01 PM

I would be nervous as hell about raw milk too. _Traditionally_ recipes for formula were because a health crisis of some sort required an intervention. A trade-off in risks was being made. *Unnecessarily* taking the added risk from raw cow's milk is, to be blunt, irresponsible.

Dd78061776671a12054e17c660aee14a

(259)

on December 30, 2010
at 07:52 PM

What's "um, wow?"

3558d8feb56bc681144f87e67140f885

on December 30, 2010
at 05:55 PM

I can't agree with this more. Well said. I nursed my kids until they were two, and only stopped because I became pregnant and didn't feel up to it anymore! But I have friends who have breastfed through pregnancies, also.

2e47fde921accd6c6b2aa71902f9de86

(140)

on December 30, 2010
at 03:03 PM

Yes, stay away from cow products! I was breastfed but had lots of exposure to dairy products as an infant, and I did develop Type I.

0e4e5882872d6a7c472ea51aec457e66

(1994)

on December 30, 2010
at 01:38 PM

I breastfed my children 1 1/2 years each... with good support from my midwife.

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16 Answers

best answer

6
27a29804a79e90f5b8193ea33f392852

on January 03, 2011
at 10:43 AM

I think it's wonderful that your wife is committing to 6 months, any amount of breastfeeding is good. I aslo think people should stop being judgemental and holier than thou when it comes to breastfeeding. If she can breastfeed for 2 years great, but if she "only" breastfeeds for 6 months, that's also very good.

And to answer your question, a human milk bank sounds like a good idea.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on June 13, 2011
at 02:57 AM

Human milk banks generally won't sell to a healthy 6 month old and it's 3-4 dollars an ounce. Most babies drink about 25-30 oz (I think) by 6 months. You do the math There are milk sharing websites like hm4hb.com but that's sharing between individual women and most women will only share their milk with truly needy people who are unable to nurse. Not someone unwilling to put the work in to pump at work.

10
00fe9c58f7020500007bd5f9638747fa

on December 30, 2010
at 01:13 PM

If she only plans to breastfeed for "up to six months" you'll be stuck with formula no matter what. Six months isn't old enough for solid foods yet. Ideally children should breastfeed for 2-3 years, but there's no hard upper limit.

If she can't or wont do this, the best alternative is to contact a human milk bank. This site should help: http://www.hmbana.org/

Also also, this site will send a breastfeeding consultant to your house if you're having problems: http://www.llli.org/

3558d8feb56bc681144f87e67140f885

on December 30, 2010
at 05:55 PM

I can't agree with this more. Well said. I nursed my kids until they were two, and only stopped because I became pregnant and didn't feel up to it anymore! But I have friends who have breastfed through pregnancies, also.

1cbb6b2a813475d6c0b17fd5e898dc50

(1248)

on January 03, 2011
at 11:48 AM

I was also under the impression that children should "idealy" be brestfed for 2 years because of the awesome nutrition of the milk.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on June 12, 2011
at 10:45 PM

Human milk banks generally won't sell to people who have healthy children over the age of 3 months. It's much easier to get it from a milk share network. Human Milk for Human babies is one http://www.hm4hb.net/ and milkshare is another http://milkshare.birthingforlife.com/

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on June 12, 2011
at 08:05 PM

Great information Lurene. Aaron, children should ideally be breastfed *at least* two years. Based on a number of markers, it appears that a biologically appropriate age of weaning for human infants is 2-7 years. In traditional cultures, 2 years is definitely on the young side for weaning.

C0fcb48d7da4f76fac17318efd2cd6b8

(4069)

on January 03, 2012
at 06:30 AM

I breast fed for six months, and then one day my son bit me and he never breastfed again. My husband was up all night, cooking and grinding chicken soup, and my son thrived on solid food from that point on. He also *never* drank from a bottle- only a cup, and never used a pacifier. We never "made" him do anything, it was all him, with us adapting. He is now a strapping 6' 1" 27 year old- 160 pounds, strong, smart, and I say handsome.

6
0037d03799fbdf83d3edc63dab01ac5a

(236)

on January 06, 2011
at 12:53 PM

Wow, some people seem not to have children here... It's great to have ambitions and a strict plan when you plan to have kids but if you believe that it will be the perfect ride, you guys are fouling yourselves big time!

Breasfeeding is not easy, esp when you have little support besides your man and a job to go back to within a couple of months after the delivery. Breastfeeding is exhausting, difficult and a lot of mothers do not produce enough milk. On top of that, some infants cannot suckle properly because of the non alignement of their upper and lower jaws, which means that mothers have to pump all their milk, which means triple work: pump, feed, and handle all the logistics (freeze, clean bottles, etc)

Commercial formula is disgusting and it's a relevant question to ask to know if you can make a homemade version of it. The Weston Price website is a good source for that. If you look at the recipes though, it might be actually easier to stick to breast milk as it can be pretty hard to get raw goat milk in some places in the US.

I wish you and your wife all the best and hope she will enjoy breastfeeding because if it doesn't feel awful to her, half the work is done ;)

Dd78061776671a12054e17c660aee14a

(259)

on January 06, 2011
at 05:36 PM

Thanks for your reply! Actually, there is a farm just a few miles from where we live where I can get raw goats milk. Hopefully it won't be needed for many months, but we just have to wait and see.

1fc9c11cf23b2f62ac78979de933ad83

(2435)

on May 05, 2011
at 01:45 AM

I had an awful time nursing mt first daughter. I stuck with it and was able to get her a latch with a nipple shield after about a week of her practically starving. I understand how hard it can be, but if you try your hardest and stick with it long enough to make it work, it can be rewarding. I ended up losing the nipple shield at 4 months and nursing her until she was 2 and I was pregnant again.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on June 12, 2011
at 11:47 PM

I do have a baby, and because of my csection my milk came in late and we had a few issues. I was committed to breastfeeding, though and pumped around the clock, every 2 hours for almost a week until my supply was up. I have a friend who dis it for almost a month and a half before she was able to bread feed exclusively. I'm sorry, but unless you have a serious medical excuse, I'm going to judge anyone who doesn't choose to breastfeed. What's the point of all this paleo stuff if we don't even give a crap about our kid's diet and health. It's incredibly important and most problems can be overcome

6a92040024fa2930264448d65ad5e1d9

(50)

on January 11, 2012
at 08:56 AM

That's kind of harsh Ashley. I have three children, my first I breastfed until 5 months when my milk supply was totally dried up. I didn't even know that could happen. I spent two weeks with a screaming baby trying to nurse and console around the clock before I realized I had no milk (I could never get anymore than a few drops even using a commercial grade medela pump) My second I breastfed two months before stopping due to severe depression, my third is almost 3 months old and I can't BF due to antidepressants. lighten up. Everyone has a different situation.

4
Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

on June 12, 2011
at 07:53 PM

There's no reason to expect that your wife won't be able to nurse. Chances are that with appropriate steps taken, it'll go great! Just do the best you can to insure no mom/baby separation, lots of skin to skin time etc. And even if those are interrupted, chances are that breastfeeding will will go well.

Best videos ever - from Jack Newman's International Breastfeeding Center, a world renowned center for managing breastfeeding and feeding difficulties.

Given the risks associated with feeding formula (decrease in IQ, increased risk of infections, increase risk of death from diarrhea and other gut issues, increased risk of various kinds of childhood cancer) it would seem prudent to 1)plan for success and 2)get support on board should issues come up. A board certified IBCLC is a good place to start though admittedly, it does occasionally take time to find the right one for a given set of issues. And heck, if formula does become necessary, don't sweat it. Do the best you can to avoid it but if it's needed just keep moving forward and know you're doing the best you can.

Fwiw, I would be very comfortable using the recipes from WAPF. If raw milk is of concern, make the formula with pasturized milk. Just heat the milk to the temp necessary to kill potential pathogens - You can find it in scientific references regarding the pasturization of human milk. You could even just use already pasturized organic milk from the store as the base for the recipe.

Basic trouble shooting: Even if mom has major supply problems, it's simple enough to use a nursing supplementer at the breast to feed baby supplemental feeds (commercial or homemade formula) until mom's supply catches up. Or if mom seems to have a primary supply problem that is not resolving, it can be used as long as baby is nursing.

Latch issues - if baby doesn't latch on in the first few hours, don't hesitate to use a nipple shield. Many IBCLC's and post partum nurses at the hospital discourage their use and wrongly so. If a baby isn't latching well in the first 24 hours, everyone starts to get a little nervous and right around 24h a bottle will be given (most of the time). If a nipple shield, used properly, had been introduced much early, baby will generally be at the breast making everyone much more comfortable and (essentially) eliminating the need to consider a supplemental feed.

I help many, many people with breastfeeding in a pretty intensive way and can tell you that as long one is committed to breastfeeding, it almost always works if everyone stays open to the options (ie using a nipple shield and/or at breast supplementer if needed) and relaxed. While it generally works well right away, occasionally, it takes time for a baby to get started on feeding well from the breast.

The last four babies I worked with went thusly - shared with permission from the moms who are glad to use their stories to help others -

Baby 1 2 weeks postdates (ie late), failed pitocin induction, cesarean birth -no suck reflex at birth (which was overcome over the course of four or so hours), @4h finger feeding baby with a supplementer, continued for 24h as needed.

@24h, baby was able to latch with shield and supplementer at breast - sometimes. By 48h, baby was able to regularly latch with shield and supplementer. Milk was in at 72h, baby still needed supplementer and sheild - was not able to transfer milk on her own without supplementer. Mom's supply was excellent.

By the end of the fifth day, baby was able to nurse at breast, with shield, without supplementer every time. many attempts were made to wean baby off shield. only occasionally would baby nurse without shield and only for a moment before refusing. goal is having baby happy at breast so I encouraged it's continued use with occasional attempts to wean from it. One day, at four months, baby went on without the sheild and has been nursing without it ever since.

This baby had a smallish lower jaw and possibly just needed some time to grow a bit so she could latch more deeply in order to transfer milk on her own.

Baby 2 uneventful normal unmedicated birth - many attempts to get baby to latch resulted in one minimally successful latch after about 3 hours. Baby had a very small lower-jaw, and mom had very firm breast tissue - this can be a tricky combination as it's baby's lower jaw that does most of the work of breastfeeding.

At 12 hours, baby was given 30 mL formula (a totally inappropriate amount for a 12h old baby) at the hospital as they were not able to get baby to latch. after that, we were not able to achieve a successful latch until, after many attempts, we used a nipple shield and supplementer.

At 3-5 days, it was clear that supply was marginal so mom pumped after feedings to increase supply. Another option is to not pump, but continue feeding baby at breast with supplementer very frequently, switching sides frequently to stimulate letdown, take herbs and medications (domperidone) to increase supply and eventually, most will reduce and finally eliminate supplementer.

This mom didn't want to use any formula though so she was very committed to pumping. Long story short: baby was dx'ed with a type 4 tongue-tie, had a frenotomy and still couldn't nurse without the shield and supplementer. Mom bottle fed a lot and pumped a lot. Slowly increased feedings at the breast with the shield after her supply was up from the frequent pumping.

After 5-6 weeks, she began nursing without the shield occasionally but baby still got lots of bottles. At 8-9 weeks, baby suddenly started nursing very well - no shield. Mom returned to work. Baby gets bottles at daycare and nurses happily at home in the am, at drop off at daycare, at pickup at daycare, in the evening at home. She sleeps through the night and has been since six or so weeks of age. Mom encourages others to not be stressed if breastfeeding is not going well because it'll all work out eventually.

Baby 3 Planned cesarean at 39 weeks due to breech presentation. Extremely physically adept. From birth, baby could roll both ways!

No latch was achieved for approx 24 hours in spite of continuous contact of mom and baby and continuous excellent lactation support. Baby was born at a Baby Friendly Certified hospital so there are no procedures that will interrupt nursing. Still, baby wasn't nursing. B/c of the certification, I couldn't get a nipple shield from the hospital staff, the IBCLCs were unavailable on the weekend and locally there wasn't one to be found (fwiw they can be purchased at Target).

At 24h baby did successfully latch but came off repeatedly for all feedings through 72h. Baby and mom both stayed very calm and were very patient. While it was probably frustrating for baby to not be able to maintain a latch, her calm persistence was really impressive. By day four, baby had lost more than 10% of her body weight, by day 5, 14% in spite of frequent feeds, breast compression.

Keep in mind that cesarean birth often delays Lactogenesis II ('milk coming in") until day 5. And C-sec babies loose more weight anyway due to loosing fluids from mom's IVs and lack of being squeezed through the birth canal.

At 72h, mom started pumping (hand expression is better for colostrum removal so we did both. great video here) Fed baby colustrum via feeding tube attached to syringe while baby would nurse. Used breast compression to increase milk transfer.

Also, at the beginning of the fourth day, we supplementing at breastwith formula as needed to keep baby actively nursing at breast until she was content. Mom really didn't like pumping so we didn't do much of it. Maybe just a couple of times.

At 4.5 days, in the middle of the night, mom's milk came in, baby went to the breast, we immediately discontinued use of the supplementer and it was clear things had turned around. From the beginning, this baby has been willing to sleep 4-5 hour stretches at night, initially being woken in order to insure adequate stimulation of mom's breasts, then later, we left her to her own sleep cycle.

She regularly sleeps 4-7 hours at night without feeding, makes up her intake during the day. This baby needs to be left unswaddled during the day in order to insure adequate feeds. If swaddled during the day she will sleep and sleep andsleep meaning she doesn't get enough food and mom's supply goes down. Unswaddled during the day, swaddled at night is perfect for her.

Baby 4 cesarean birth. mom: 'flat nipples'. baby: very very small lower jaw and mouth. stage 3 tongue tie. mom reluctant to allow a frenotomy. I suspected that even with a frenotomy, like baby 2, this baby still wouldn't nurse well right away but would need to grow a bit in order to breastfeed well - that tricky combination of small jaw, small mouth and firm maternal breast tissue was at work.

At one week, baby was exclusively bottle feeding and mom was pumping. Showed mom how to properly use a nipple shield and supplementer at breast. Baby was resistant at times due to prior frustration with unsuccesful latch attempts. Over the course of 3 or so feedings in a row, baby started eagerly accepting feedings at the breast with supplementer. Bottle feeds initially would cause this baby to start refusing the breast, though generally I find "nipple confusion" not to be a problem.

At 14 days, baby was always willing to feed at breast with supplementer, shield and breast compression. Mom pumped after feeds and had a great supply.

At 21 days, baby was able to move easily between bottle feeds and breastfeeds (with supplementer, shield and breast compression) but still only in the "football hold" or upright in the baby bjorn (loosen straps to appropriately drop baby to the right level).

Somewhere between 3 and 4 weeks, baby was willing to feed without the supplementer, consistently and at 4 weeks, baby started feeding without the shield and is now taking almost all feeds at the breast in that wonderful easy, automatic, don't have to think much about it sort of way. She will also take a bottle.

From the beginning she's been sleeping from about 7 pm to 8 am waking to feed at 8:30pm, 10pm, 3 or 4 am and 6:30am.

Have your help/resources lined up in advance. Wishing you the very best!

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on June 13, 2011
at 12:04 AM

I agree with the Dr. Newman videos advice. They are amazingly helpful with learning a good latch.

4
9722850c9a1c47b79edf7c4233040248

(1276)

on January 06, 2011
at 04:25 PM

Travis, you're a man, right? Did you know that it's possible for men to lactate with the right supplementation and/or emotional upheavals (as in his wife dying in childbirth or being particularly worried about a baby's health)? I don't want to hear you bitch until you've had a child attached to your man-tits for 2-3 years. Maybe you can be the wet-nurse for BobbyD's child if you care about their business so much.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on January 06, 2011
at 07:46 PM

Your vitriol aside, I find the supposition that a simple loss of the mother could result in the production of milk by a male to be quite interesting, even if patently false. I suppose a case of male galactorrhoea could coincide with a birth of a child and thus give this impression.

Dd78061776671a12054e17c660aee14a

(259)

on January 06, 2011
at 11:39 PM

Since when is the loss of a mother "simple?" I am blessed to still have a mother, but I have lost a child, and I can tell you that there is nothing simple about it.

3
28f280f8d64c7207fd94d158fbe6e070

(218)

on January 03, 2012
at 05:28 AM

I had three breastfed children. My fourth was born in August and for some strange reason my milk never came in. I'm paleo plus organic full fat dairy, and I thought I'd be even a better Bessie than ever before. Yet even with round the clock pumping and a serious lactation consultant, we could not get more than an ounce out of me each session.

By day 4 we obviously had to supplement, poor baby. So we got the most organic commercial formula we could find. Yet it made me ill to read the ingredients. we literally wouldn't feed our pets that crap. Our pets eat organic paleo too! And this was our precious baby.

I researched 24/7 (with baby in arms) online on how to make a better formula. I think I found every scrap of info on the Weston A. price infant formula that could be found on the world wide web. It took a couple weeks of serious thinking before we decided to gather the ingredients and begin to make the formula. We started slow. We use the raw cow's milk formula and we replaced the hard-to-digest yeast flakes with B complex drops, and added a teense of grade B maple syrup per bottle for smooth digestion. There was a transition for baby's tummy and we worried, but she came through the transition and has been growing and thriving ever since.

I can make up the day's formula by heart in 15 minutes and it is a joy to do. I was heartbroken not to be able to breastfeed her, but her formula is so rich and healthy and nourishing that I truly feel great about it. Her brothers also enjoy bottle feeding her.

While not applicable to you all here, with your great diets, there is ample though hidden evidence that breast is NOT better if the mama is malnourished with a crappy diet. Yes, the baby gets the nutrients first, but sometimes there just isnt anything healthy in the mama. Breast is best only if mama eats well and is well. My milk theoretically would have been great with my diet, but I believe this rich, whole formula is the next best thing.

Please, don't dis me. There are many of us out here for whom it just didn't work. We tried everything. I breastfed 3 babies for an average of 2 years each. Sometimes it doesn't work. For real. Also, this formula is used a lot by adoptive moms - relactation does not always work either. So always be supportive of women who just couldn't breastfeed, and know that there is a truly healthy alternative when necessary.

306aa57660d911781231f8090c2a5619

(3808)

on January 03, 2012
at 05:44 PM

You went into it fully intending to breastfeed, place value on breastfeeding well beyond a bare minimum, and worked hard to try to get breastfeeding to work. I don't think anyone is bashing people who *need* to use formula. The OP just seems to be going into the process with an "Oh well, if it doesn't go smoothly we'll just use formula" attitude, which is a setup for failure. It doesn't go perfectly smoothly for a lot of people, but the problems are often (though not always) solvable. In any case, the question for this particular paleobaby is over and done with, since it was due a year ago.

6a92040024fa2930264448d65ad5e1d9

(50)

on January 11, 2012
at 09:05 AM

Nancy, Thank you for your post. I have been formula feeding my son and it grosses me out. I saw the same recipe on the Weston A Price website too, but I wonder (and perhaps you can help out) where do you get all the ingredients? I think htere is a local dairy that sells Raw milk where I live, but the other stuff? and how long does it last for what cost? My husband and I are both college students on a little/no income (not that the price of feeding our baby isn't worth it, it is, there is just no money) My son drinks about 32 oz a day. (he is over 14 lbs at 2.5 months.)

28f280f8d64c7207fd94d158fbe6e070

(218)

on February 23, 2012
at 03:53 PM

There must be a lot of people secretly using this WAPformula, because when you query up one of the ingredients from either amazon or iherb, the others come up as suggestions. You have to make your own whey but it's simply leaving raw milk out on the counter for some days. Raw milk doesn't "spoil" like pasteurized does.

3
Medium avatar

(12379)

on January 28, 2011
at 10:49 PM

I think the most important thing about breastfeeding is to relax! It's natural and with your support your wife and baby will be great at it. PERIOD! You should breastfeed for the amount of time that everyone feels comfortable with it. My son weened himself at 10.5 months. He went onto formula until about a year and now he drinks organic milk. That's what worked for us - what works for you might be different - but its your choice - don't let anyone else tell you any differently. There are so many opinions out there - and so many people willing to force them down your throat (seriously when you have kids its nuts what people will say to you in the grocery line). Remember you are the paretn - your opinion is the one that matters and no matter what decision you make, it is the RIGHT one!!!

That being said - with the worry about the flavour of the liver based formula - babies don't really have advanced palette's yet - so your babe might not mind it - so go for it - amybe don't make 11 gallons, but make a small batch and try it out. And if they don't go for it the first time - try again a couple weeks or a month later.

Good luck and Congratulations!!!

Medium avatar

(12379)

on June 13, 2011
at 05:28 PM

I agree with you - not everyone can breastfeed - but being comfortable and relaxed and able to accept help really can make a difference. With my little guy and weaning - I offered daily for months and he was not interested - so it was the right time for him. I think that it is cultural for sure - but I am not going to stress about it - he'a a thriving healthy 2 year old and there is SO much in life to stress about!

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on June 12, 2011
at 08:01 PM

1)Being relaxed and flexible are key, but it doesn't workout just because moms and babies are. Because it's not something women grow up with, they simply aren't familiar with the ins and outs of nursing and there are frequently very real problems that need solving. 2)Baby led cessation of nursing prior to 12 months is considered a 'nursing strike' rather than 'self weaning'. Biologically appropriate ages of weaning are considered to be between 2 and 7 years of age based on available anthropological evidence: http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detwean.html

2
61676cba57a61e0d1697603ebb768e42

on January 02, 2012
at 02:20 PM

I have breastfed 3 children. I second that breastfeeding can be difficult. With the support of dad and a good doula, who is also experienced in breastfeeding will be important to establish breastfeeding. Once established, breastfeeding is soo easy. If your wife makes it 6 months, she wouldn't necessarily need or want to stop just because of a part-time job. I breastfed my older 2 children about 2 years. I worked part-time or full-time and pumped early on. But, by the end of the first year I had stopped pumping. Baby ate table food, drank water at home, then nursed at night and in the evenings/weekends, etc. on demand. Formula was available, but my husband found they didn't need/want it except rarely from about 10 months on. My youngest is now 10 months old and I have stopped pumping at work. This is due to the inconvenience of pumping and the fact that it takes me about 1/2 an hour to get about 4 oz. Not worth it when I can spend that extra time nursing baby after work. Bottom line, just because your wife will be working doesn't mean she has to deal with a pump to keep nursing. I would get a good hand pump to help if she gets uncomfortable, but otherwise she can avoid it and still continue to nurse. Sorry, I don't know about making the infant formula, goat's milk might be a good alternative while she was working, but I would consult a nutritionist if it was to be babies primary nutrition.

28f280f8d64c7207fd94d158fbe6e070

(218)

on February 23, 2012
at 04:04 PM

Do. Not. Approach a standard nutritionist to ask about your baby's needs. Do your own research. If you are in the paleo community you know how far off schools of nutrition can be from good health. This is your BABY we are talking about. I love my old pediatrician. He's seen everything. But i love him only for his medical school + decades of treating sick kids, NOT FOR HIS NUTRITIONAL KNOWLEDGE. He would probably throw us out of his practice if he knew we were feeding her a raw cows milk formula.

2
35b6ce9b7f9dda8d40d3e6a1812ab0a9

on June 23, 2011
at 12:32 AM

There is no reason to use formula when there are women out there who have pumped too much and are begging for someone to take their freezer stash off their hands.

Someone already mentioned MilkShare. Here it is again. http://milkshare.birthingforlife.com/

The newer, more popular connection is through Facebook for the most part. They've been getting quite a big of press. http://www.hm4hb.net/index.html is newer

According to World Health Organization, infant feeding has 4 options

  1. Breast milk from the mother's breast
  2. Breast milk pumped from the mother, delivered in a bottle.
  3. Breast milk from ANOTHER MOTHER
  4. Artificial Breast milk Substitute (formula)

that's right. Formula is 4th best.

My oldest spent 8 months on formula when my milk dried up due to 2nd pregnancy (not completely normal) in 2006. A friend at the time had a freezer FULL of milk that she wound up shipping from Hawaii to a milk bank out of state or something when I would have picked it up at her house across town, had I even THOUGHT about milk sharing.

Your wife is going to do great. Like others have said, start going to La Leche League meetings NOW, during pregnancy. Don't wait another month. LLL's are traditionally pretty crunchy people who will LOVE to hear all about your paleo adventures. You can go with her and be the awesome, supportive hubby all the other ladies envy your wifey for having. It sounds like you have some great resources right here on PH when the time comes and issues are happening.

My friend who had all the milk had so much because she was a working mom scared of losing her milk. From the time her baby was born she pumped as if she had a second child. She was a serious dairy cow because she told her body that she needed 2 babies worth of milk. If your wife can do that too, even if her milk dries up, you'll have your own freezer stash to pull from for a long time. Of course with milk storage guidelines, you'll have to be strategic about what you pump and what you use and keep it first in first out...but you could definitely set your wife up to lactate for 6 months but feed breastmilk for 12...or more. You can't try tricking your body a few weeks after birth though. You have to tell it you have twins from the beginning. Establishing milk supply is a lot easier than increasing an already established milk supply.

Good Luck. You have no idea how great your wife will be. She'll be amazing, especially with all the support you appear prepared to be!

28f280f8d64c7207fd94d158fbe6e070

(218)

on February 23, 2012
at 04:00 PM

Three things wrong with breast milk banks: 1) expensive 2) they destroy the milk by pasteurizing it. 3) you have zero control over what the mama eats. She could be eating the SAD and many ingredients you do not wish in your newborn's body. The growth of a human in the first year is the most growth we will ever do. Their nutrition seriously becomes them. I trust a grass fed, overregulated raw milk dairy over "some lactating woman."

2
0e4e5882872d6a7c472ea51aec457e66

(1994)

on December 30, 2010
at 01:36 PM

Feeding babys a formula derived from cow's milk increases the danger of developing type 1 diabetes. There's a protein in cow's milk that resembles the human pancreatic beta cells and so provokes an auto immune reaktion which results in the final destruktion of the pancreatic beta cells and type 1 diabetes. There have been studies on identical twins...

http://healthcareupdates.com/2010/12/22/type-1-diabetes-mellitus-and-possible-causes-of-it/

0e4e5882872d6a7c472ea51aec457e66

(1994)

on December 30, 2010
at 01:38 PM

I breastfed my children 1 1/2 years each... with good support from my midwife.

2e47fde921accd6c6b2aa71902f9de86

(140)

on December 30, 2010
at 03:03 PM

Yes, stay away from cow products! I was breastfed but had lots of exposure to dairy products as an infant, and I did develop Type I.

0
F17088b21ae0f36d78d9b8648d752f5c

on February 11, 2011
at 08:41 AM

You can make up a fat-rich formula using A2 milk.

Otherwise, most commercial formulas are a blend of whey protein and omega 3 oils. You could easily make up your own formula from whey protein isolate, heavy cream, cod liver oil and some fish oil. Other necessary nutrients can all be blended in to make a smooth liquid. Try to get mercury/contaminant-free sources of cod liver oil and fish oil.

That being said, a liver shake might not be too unpalatable to the baby because food preference is a question of culture.

Bear in mind you cannot reproduce certain substances e.g. IGF1 in formula - some things can only come from breast milk so for the sake of the long-term well-being of your child, you might want to speak to your wife about breast-feeding for a longer-term or maybe, finding a wet nurse.

0
5740abb0fa033403978dd988b0609dfd

on December 30, 2010
at 07:21 PM

"She plans to breastfeed up to six months if all goes well, and I am thankful for her willingness to do this."

Um, wow.

Dd78061776671a12054e17c660aee14a

(259)

on December 30, 2010
at 07:52 PM

What's "um, wow?"

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on June 12, 2011
at 08:19 PM

That is, 6 months should be a lower limit, not an upper limit.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on June 12, 2011
at 11:48 PM

I totally agree, ambi.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on June 12, 2011
at 08:16 PM

Wow, because anyone who understands the detriments of not breastfeeding tries to nurse for *at least* six months.

4d6aa1a676240b15dc569ff8ade0500f

(2546)

on January 02, 2012
at 08:55 PM

this comment was simply unnecessarily obnoxious.

-1
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on February 11, 2011
at 05:44 AM

i've been drinking bird nest soup every night (i only get the homemade kind back at home). the only reason why i drink it is because it's supposed to be good for complexion.

i???ve been taking the store-bought kind online (e.g. www.geocities.jp/hongkong_bird_nest/index_e.htm of famous branded only of course) which is directly mailed from Hong Kong. this would be at a more affordable price.

-2
Medium avatar

on January 04, 2011
at 12:28 AM

If you don't want to breastfeed/pump milk for 2 years, you probably shouldn't reproduce. I think the !Kung do it for 2-3 years.

27a29804a79e90f5b8193ea33f392852

(227)

on January 06, 2011
at 07:12 PM

"Maybe you can be the wet-nurse for BobbyD's child if you care about their business so much." LOL I think that's a great idea Heather!

Dd78061776671a12054e17c660aee14a

(259)

on January 04, 2011
at 12:10 PM

Should my wife also walk a mile from home so she can deliver the baby unassisted into a small hole she dug and lined with leaves? If you read the original question, I was asking if anyone had experiences with homemade formula. My wife will be going back to work part-time and we know eventually she will stop pumping and that we will be feeding the baby formula. Will that be after 6 months? After 9? I don't know, I'm just trying to be prepared. If you have nothing helpful to add, please take your ignorance elsewhere.

9722850c9a1c47b79edf7c4233040248

(1276)

on January 06, 2011
at 04:26 PM

Travis, you're a man, right? Did you know that it's possible for men to lactate with the right supplementation and/or emotional upheavals (as in his wife dying in childbirth or being particularly worried about a baby's health)? I don't want to hear you bitch until you've had a child attached to your man-tits for 2-3 years. Maybe you can be the wet-nurse for BobbyD's child if you care about their business so much.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on June 13, 2011
at 12:11 AM

This isn't the feel good forum. If someone came in here satin they were planning on eating 50% paleo and 50% McDonald no one would say "oh, at least you are trying." I have all the love in my heart for moms who have a hard time with nursing but I agree with Travis even if I don't agree with his callousness. Pumping while working is possible and anyone who cares about their baby's health should make it a priority. I know plenty of moms who do. My mom in the early 80's pumped for all 3 of my siblings and I or a year and she was a corporate shark back then and had to do it in bathrooms.

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on June 12, 2011
at 07:57 PM

I do think that most are unaware of just how risky formula actually is and the tremendous toll (financially, physically and ito mental health) that it takes on public health. Remember, breastfeeding *does not* have benefits - formula feeding has risks. Significant ones. Having said that, there are appropriate uses for it and I'm glad it's there when I need it (when working with a mom who is struggling with nursing) I just wish it wasn't considered such an acceptable, normal alternative as truly neither of those things.

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on June 12, 2011
at 07:54 PM

2-7 years appears to be the range for a biologically appropriate age of weaning: http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detwean.html

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on January 03, 2012
at 05:57 AM

I sure hope anyone male with that attitude is an incredibly diligent user of condoms and a complete willingness to put his money where his mouth is. The reality is that not everyone has this privilege to long term BF. Instead of shaming the failures, let's support the attempts.

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on January 03, 2012
at 05:58 AM

Not everyone works a job that suits pumping. I somehow don't think we're all envisioning poor working class moms...

-3
Ab16723d7258326c291bdc86e8c6855a

on December 30, 2010
at 01:15 PM

Similac Alimentum - Baby Protein Shake, easiest to digest and pre digested. No Spitting up, puking associated with cow based derived formula:

http://cgi.ebay.com/16-CANS-16-OZ-SIMILAC-ALIMENTUM-POWDERED-FORMULA-/260712532033?pt=Feeding&hash=item3cb3ad8841

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on June 13, 2011
at 12:03 AM

Ewww I would never give a child that overly pocessed crap when there are milk sharing groups, home made formula, and milk Banks.

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