2

votes

How would you optimize bone mass if you could start from the beginning?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created May 25, 2013 at 12:16 AM

Bone structure is a cornerstone of the WAPF. Something like 97% of modern people have dental decay. It's the biggest disease of our day and it is basically a window into our bone structure. Decaying teeth can often be a sign of poor bone health which is why one of the lowest demographics for tooth decay tends to be the same demographics who have the most bone mass.

So, if you could start from being a baby, go all the way to the beginning, or start anew for your kid, how would you optimize his/her Bone mass/bone mineral content/bone mineral density/ bone structure?

Specifically I'm asking for answers along the lines of foods and exercises, but all answers are welcome.

32652cb696b75182cb121009ee4edea3

(5802)

on June 05, 2013
at 01:59 AM

Of course now I overanalyze it - too much chicken? more beef? pastured? lol. But I think at the time it was a huge jump in nutrient density for my body.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10979)

on June 04, 2013
at 11:04 PM

Congratulations, sound like something was right with the bone broth, or the chicken, maybe a combination.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10979)

on June 04, 2013
at 11:03 PM

Stress will increase Bone Mineral Density but I haven't seen much on its effects on BMC or Bone Mass, do you have any? Also, how specifically would you suggest someone eat in regards to their teeth, 'eating similar to our ancestors' is a very ambiguous statement.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10979)

on June 04, 2013
at 11:02 PM

Which ancestors?

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10979)

on June 04, 2013
at 11:00 PM

Yea I was giving you a hard time with the exercise inflammation thing, I haven't seen enough conclusive data on the subject yet. To the degree that one builds muscle from the exercise it would probably ultimately be anti-inflammatory. I do disagree on the calcium subject though, see some of my other threads where I talk about hydroxyapatite.

048dd52752c45129c1212bfffb37ca72

(3150)

on June 04, 2013
at 09:40 PM

As for the calcium, something in me tells me you can get enough with well-rounded diet, maybe some dairy here in there to be safe and vegetables rich in calcium like kale and spinach (just beware of oxalates), some herbs and if you enjoy seaweed they seem to be pretty rich. But I think it's more about what you do with your calcium more than how much you have.

048dd52752c45129c1212bfffb37ca72

(3150)

on June 04, 2013
at 09:38 PM

Well I'm no expert on this by all means, just passed on the data I readed a few times when I got to this topics by change, hehe. I personally think that there's a difference between acute inflammation (exercise induced, should be hormetic, so you heal and develop fitness, that's what you want) and chronic inflammation (produced by being in a constant inflammation state not only at muscular but mitochondrial level which could be caused by many things, you don't want this).

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10979)

on June 04, 2013
at 09:34 PM

Vitamin D3 increases serum Osteocalcin which once carboxylated by vitamin K can bind hydroxyapatite and allocate calcium and other minerals into the bone to increase bone mineral density and Bone mineral content. Any studies showing that people with osteoperosis are getting RDA+ of calcium? Your advice to work out and avoid inflammation seems mildly contradictory since weight training causes inflammation immediately. Also do you have any recommendations on the type of calcium to consume or would you consider them all the same?

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on May 25, 2013
at 05:41 AM

(Enamel demineralization takes place at pH below 5.5. Calcium and phosphate ions are dissolved out of the tooth and eventually cause decay with the help of Streptococcus mutans and lactobacillus bacteria. Calcium, phosphate, and fluoride remineralize the tooth under the right conditions. Saliva contains calcium, phosphate, and bicarbonate. Healthy saliva has a pH of 6.8 to 7.4. Remineralization takes place at a higher pH of 7.5 to 8.5 in the presence of calcium and phosphate.)

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on May 25, 2013
at 05:40 AM

"The chemical name for NovaMin is Calcium Sodium Phosphosilicate. NovaMin releases fully active calcium and phosphorus ions when in contact with water. This provides a higher concentration of the same ions that are naturally found in saliva. After brushing, NovaMin particles adhere to the tooth surface and continues to release ions for hours afterward. This ensures and enhances the natural self-repair of your tooth surface." Seems to be the opposite of de mineralizing.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on May 25, 2013
at 05:35 AM

Damn, the search for a better toothpaste continues. I can't quite get behind brushing with salt / cooking oil or tea tree. Enamel demineralization takes place at pH below 5.5. Calcium and phosphate ions are dissolved out of the tooth and eventually cause decay with the help of Streptococcus mutans and lactobacillus bacteria. Calcium, phosphate, and fluoride remineralize the tooth under the right conditions. Saliva contains calcium, phosphate, and bicarbonate. Healthy saliva has a pH of 6.8 to 7.4. From the research, it looks like calcium sodium phosphosilicate in glycerin would be effective

34a31e6e59ee73ac7ddfd96c3e653919

(232)

on May 25, 2013
at 02:00 AM

glycern based toothpastes are supposed to be not ideal...they de mineralize the teeth if i remember correctly. oil based "tooth pastes" are the best, something like coconut oil with baking soda, himalayan salt, and tee tree oil would work quite well.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on May 25, 2013
at 01:53 AM

Regarding teeth, I've been brushing with NovaMin (burt's bees fluoride / sls-free). Kids gotta brush. I've read good things about BLIS-K12 / BLIS-M18 salivarius strains. Then, probably just basic diet / exercise / hygiene / good genes.

8f2d9842fdfec224a425c0f77c4ee34d

(1241)

on May 25, 2013
at 01:23 AM

I'm amazed to see anyone waste their life away with such nonsense.

  • Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

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4 Answers

best answer

1
A7c1857ce53fb11a9351d05718c7070d

(283)

on June 04, 2013
at 10:21 PM

I would have to say the very first place to start is gut health. If there are any gut issues like SIBO or leaky gut to start with, then you will not be absorbing any of the nutrients Albert83BCN mentioned in his answer, which by the way are all very important. So how to do this is to eat real food (#JERF), and avoid inflammatory foods like grains, processed seed/vegetable oils, and legumes (ie Paleo :-). Oh ya, and don't skimp on the bone broth: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/cooking-with-bones/#axzz2VHxDJNQW

The next thing is to put your bones under a bit of strain. Basically give them some weight to bear by walking, standing, and squatting as much as possible (sitting kills). Also, at a certain age, throwing some properly lifting weights in there would be super beneficial.

With regards to teeth, eating similar to our ancestors should do the trick just fine: http://www.thebarefootgolfer.com/2013/04/04/oral-bacteria-and-our-health-an-evolutionary-diet-perspective/

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10979)

on June 04, 2013
at 11:03 PM

Stress will increase Bone Mineral Density but I haven't seen much on its effects on BMC or Bone Mass, do you have any? Also, how specifically would you suggest someone eat in regards to their teeth, 'eating similar to our ancestors' is a very ambiguous statement.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10979)

on June 04, 2013
at 11:02 PM

Which ancestors?

2
048dd52752c45129c1212bfffb37ca72

on June 04, 2013
at 08:47 PM

For bone mass it seems to be that vitamins D3 and K2 might be the most important. Vitamin D is the typical hype in the popular mainstream for it's supposed role in bone density support (well it seems to have an important role in almost EVERYTHING) but vitamin K2 seems to play an even greater role by allowing osteocalcin work and let calcium stick to the bones and not other random places (like the arteries). If you notice there's a ton of dietary calcium nowadays yet people suffers from osteoporosis more than ever.

So I'd focus in getting a lot of these two, food choices seem to be a little bit scarce, best vitamin D3 intake is from the sun and K2 is present in many foods that many people will not be contemplating as grass-fed dairy like pastured butter and some soy products (with natto being the most rich). Depending on personal situation it might be a good idea to supplement.

In addition to this, I'd try to get an overall good diet and try to avoid inflammation as much as possible and weight train. Training hard is considered in many studies a great way to maintain good bone density.

More info: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/05/16/vitamins-d-and-k2-reduce-osteoporosis.aspx

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10979)

on June 04, 2013
at 09:34 PM

Vitamin D3 increases serum Osteocalcin which once carboxylated by vitamin K can bind hydroxyapatite and allocate calcium and other minerals into the bone to increase bone mineral density and Bone mineral content. Any studies showing that people with osteoperosis are getting RDA+ of calcium? Your advice to work out and avoid inflammation seems mildly contradictory since weight training causes inflammation immediately. Also do you have any recommendations on the type of calcium to consume or would you consider them all the same?

048dd52752c45129c1212bfffb37ca72

(3150)

on June 04, 2013
at 09:40 PM

As for the calcium, something in me tells me you can get enough with well-rounded diet, maybe some dairy here in there to be safe and vegetables rich in calcium like kale and spinach (just beware of oxalates), some herbs and if you enjoy seaweed they seem to be pretty rich. But I think it's more about what you do with your calcium more than how much you have.

048dd52752c45129c1212bfffb37ca72

(3150)

on June 04, 2013
at 09:38 PM

Well I'm no expert on this by all means, just passed on the data I readed a few times when I got to this topics by change, hehe. I personally think that there's a difference between acute inflammation (exercise induced, should be hormetic, so you heal and develop fitness, that's what you want) and chronic inflammation (produced by being in a constant inflammation state not only at muscular but mitochondrial level which could be caused by many things, you don't want this).

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10979)

on June 04, 2013
at 11:00 PM

Yea I was giving you a hard time with the exercise inflammation thing, I haven't seen enough conclusive data on the subject yet. To the degree that one builds muscle from the exercise it would probably ultimately be anti-inflammatory. I do disagree on the calcium subject though, see some of my other threads where I talk about hydroxyapatite.

1
32652cb696b75182cb121009ee4edea3

(5802)

on June 04, 2013
at 10:49 PM

This may be oversimplified, but I think Shanahan's 4 Pillars of Traditional Cuisine nails it. The 4 pillars:

(1) MEAT ON THE BONE, cooked long and low, eaten with its fat, broth made from scraps.

(2) ORGAN MEAT

(3) FERMENTATION AND SPROUTING

(4) FRESH RAW FOODS

Of these, for BONE health I think (1) and (2) are it.

Personal anecdote:

When I was pregnant with child #3 I was just getting into traditional foods (Nourishing Traditions, etc; pre-paleo). I lived next door (literally) to a Whole Foods, and almost every day I would buy a rotisserie chicken there and eat almost all of it. (It was the only thing I could stomach for a long time). The skin, fat, meat, yum. Then I'd collect the bones and make broth once a week.

In spite of the fact that this child was created when my body had already been depleted by the first 2 children, she has BY FAR the best bone structure of the family. Thick, dense bones, strong jaw and cheekbones, and my dentist says she is the only one he can 100% say will never need braces.

Cb9a270955e2c277a02c4a4b5dad10b5

(10979)

on June 04, 2013
at 11:04 PM

Congratulations, sound like something was right with the bone broth, or the chicken, maybe a combination.

32652cb696b75182cb121009ee4edea3

(5802)

on June 05, 2013
at 01:59 AM

Of course now I overanalyze it - too much chicken? more beef? pastured? lol. But I think at the time it was a huge jump in nutrient density for my body.

-4
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 25, 2013
at 12:21 AM

your mom is a cornerstone of the WAPF

8f2d9842fdfec224a425c0f77c4ee34d

(1241)

on May 25, 2013
at 01:23 AM

I'm amazed to see anyone waste their life away with such nonsense.

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