7

votes

What can I show my biochem prof to prove the paleo point?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created October 24, 2011 at 6:48 PM

I'm in my first year in a health science-related program and taking a biochemistry course. I knew we'd get there eventually, but last week we hit metabolism.

The prof mainly stuck to the science stuff, but also threw in things like:

  • your brain can't run without carbohydrates
  • ketosis is a "pathology" and must be avoided. It's very dangerous
  • Atkins is dangerous because it's an all-protein diet
  • you need to eat lots of carbohydrates or you'll hit the wall
  • you should be drinking sugar constantly if you are participating in endurance sports
  • "think of yourself as an animal running away from a predator. That animal requires a high-carbohydrate diet to out run its predator" etc....

After class I approached him and he was very open to doing some reading. He was particularly shocked when I told him I'd learned that the body can run happily on ketones. He could NOT believe that there was research that a low-carbohydrate diet is healthy. He is, however, open to learning more and is on board with saturated fats being good.

I've googled around and other than an Emily Deans article, can't find anything worth sending to a well-read professor about ketones and low carb body functioning. Can anyone direct me to some articles I can send him??? I was impressed at how willing to learn he was. As he is lecturing a room full of future medical professionals when he teaches this course, I'd love for him to be giving them (us) GOOD information because everyone who left lecture last week was pretty convinced that it's high carb or die...

Thank you.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on October 26, 2011
at 08:10 PM

Yes. I saw the word "can't" in all caps above. Along with "real".

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 26, 2011
at 02:11 PM

Exercise lowers your t3 as well, drinking sugar during exercise will protect you against this.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 26, 2011
at 02:10 PM

The paper on Alzheimers tries to make the claim that high carb diets can lead to Alzheimers based on AGEs but a diet of high GI carbs that raises insulin would protect you from AGEs and increase cholesterol production which is protective according to the study. The weight loss one is ridiculous as well, they basically tested a standard american diet versus a ketogenic diet.....

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 26, 2011
at 02:02 PM

Where is the evidence for our ancestors floating in and out of ketosis? Whos ancestors?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 26, 2011
at 02:01 PM

Do you see the word can't in my answer? You can do whatever you want on a ketogenic diet but you will be sub par.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 26, 2011
at 02:00 PM

Endurance sports require you to sprint.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on October 26, 2011
at 11:55 AM

That's a good point. It concludes "Therapeutic use of ketogenic diets should not require constraint of most forms of physical labor or recreational activity, with the one caveat that anaerobic (ie, weight lifting or sprint) performance is limited by the low muscle glycogen levels induced by a ketogenic diet, and this would strongly discourage its use under most conditions of competitive athletics." Of course, constrained does not equate to "can't", and also the question concerned endurance sports.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 25, 2011
at 09:43 PM

WHAT? "The bicyclist subjects of this study noted a modest decline in their energy level while on training rides during the first week of the Inuit diet, after which subjective performance was reasonably restored except for their sprint capability, which remained constrained during the period of carbohydrate restriction." GUESS THEY CAN'T BE REAL ATHLETES BECAUSE REAL ATHLETES SPRINT

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on October 25, 2011
at 06:50 PM

What? It says "Examining the results of these two ketogenic diet performance studies together indicates that both groups experienced a lag in performance across the first week or two of carbohydrate restriction, after which both peak aerobic power and sub-maximal (60–70% of VO2max) endurance performance were fully restored. In both studies, one with untrained subjects and the other with highly trained athletes who maintained their training throughout the study, there was no loss of VO2max despite the virtual absence of dietary carbohydrate for 4–6 weeks"

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 25, 2011
at 11:45 AM

By the way just because your so-called athletic performance is better now, based on your claims doesn't mean anything. Are you an elite athlete? Have you tried adding in carbs recently?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 25, 2011
at 11:44 AM

Dextery its obvious because we know how to read, go read jeffs first link. You can't perform maximal efforts on a ketogenic diet. Charles washington is the only guy you mentioned who is on a ketogenic diet and he is not an athlete, he is a random dude who runs marathons and loses.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 25, 2011
at 02:09 AM

(not to denigrate your athleticism, just pointing out that there is a gap between a normally fit person and an athlete like a football player or weightlifter)

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 25, 2011
at 02:02 AM

Dextery- It is obvious for this very simple reason (please correct me if I am wrong). Anaerobic athletes requires much more muscle glycogen than do other atheletes. One cannot replenish glycogen stores to full capacity or supersaturation (ala glycogen depletion and repletion cycles) if one is on a ketogenic diet. You may be doing much better than 10 years ago, which is great, but I don't think you are an anaerobic athlete. Bodybuilder? Powerlifter? Caber-tosser?

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on October 25, 2011
at 01:57 AM

Why is it obvious? What evidence shows that ketogenic diets are not optimal for your anaerobic athlete? CW does dictate that it is not optimal but where is the proof? For a 68 old guy, since I have been ketogenic for a couple of years, my athletic performance is is now better than it ever was 10 years ago when I was carbing.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 25, 2011
at 01:47 AM

Chickenosaurus are famed for their conservative values.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 25, 2011
at 01:46 AM

Everybody knows that Chickenosaurus Rex is a bastion of conventional wisdom ideals. Hold on, what?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 25, 2011
at 01:43 AM

Tell what to Novak Djokavic? Cliff said "that is why ketogenic diets don't work for athletes". I am not agreeing or disagreeing with this point, but Novak is gluten-free, not on a ketogenic diet. Apolo Uno (sic) is the spokesman for 5-dollar footlongs on Subway commercials. I just saw one today in fact. Ketogenic diets obviously are not optimal if you are an anaerobic-heavy athlete.

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on October 25, 2011
at 01:31 AM

@Dextery: Please, get over yourself and take your condescension elsewhere. It has no place here. Are you honestly going to say you don't find his writings a bit incoherent? Do you believe you're that "far ahead of the rest of us"? You aren't. You have no idea what you're talking about half of the time. Quit using CW when you have nothing better to throw out since you have no cogent argument for your positions other than nodding your head every time The Quilt exhales. You keep saying the same things ad nauseam.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on October 25, 2011
at 01:24 AM

Cliff, tell that to Novak Djokavic, Premier Tennis Champ, Charles Washington, paleo endurance athlete zeroinginonhealth.com Ursla Grobler, zeroinginonhealth.com Apolo Uno, Speed skating racer or just look at this PH link http://paleohacks.com/questions/11208/are-there-celebrities-who-are-paleo-whom-we-can-cite-as-good-examples#axzz1bkTZdxrm

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on October 25, 2011
at 01:06 AM

+1 good link...

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on October 25, 2011
at 01:02 AM

For you, incomprehensible ground breaking thinking will leave you in the rear view mirror of the ash heap of CW....never to venture out of your comfort and security zone to take the risk and ridicule of healing the "unhealable."

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on October 25, 2011
at 12:45 AM

Cliff, tell that to Novak Kjokavic, Premier Tennis Champ, Charles Washington, paleo endurance athlete http://www.zeroinginonhealth.com/ Ursla Grobler, http://www.zeroinginonhealth.com/ Apolo Uno, Speed skating racer or just look at this PH link...http://paleohacks.com/questions/11208/are-there-celebrities-who-are-paleo-whom-we-can-cite-as-good-examples#axzz1bkTZdxrm

Medium avatar

(39831)

on October 25, 2011
at 12:31 AM

I've heard of those fish before, but I dunno if it was in the states or not. Seems like animal cruelty (I'm whatever the opposite of a foot fetishist is).

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on October 25, 2011
at 12:31 AM

@Matthew: It has become somewhat popular here.

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on October 25, 2011
at 12:29 AM

@Dextery: There is a chasm between work that is visionary versus incomprehensible or perhaps, to be generous in some cases, inchoate ramblings.

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on October 25, 2011
at 12:23 AM

@Jay: I don't disagree with you. It is hard to find doctors that can think. I've been through so many in the past 5 years.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on October 25, 2011
at 12:22 AM

Why would someone downvote this?

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on October 25, 2011
at 12:06 AM

I would make the distinction between ketosis and low carb....there is sufficient evidence in many of the bellow links that low carb is healthy. There is ample reason to believe our ancestors floated in and out of ketosis on an ongoing basis and that they probably remained in ketosis seasonally. Ambimorph's responses to this showing why ketosis is not "stressful" still stands as far as I am concerned.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 25, 2011
at 12:03 AM

They lost the ability to sprint and cycle over about 65% vo2max. This is why ketogenic diets don't work for athletes.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 24, 2011
at 11:09 PM

I prefer the term science based medicine.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on October 24, 2011
at 10:49 PM

Or not. Look at the first link in Jeff's answer just to get started.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 24, 2011
at 10:30 PM

All pioneers may be kooks but not all kooks are pioneers. Anyway I prefer the term science based medicine.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 24, 2011
at 10:28 PM

Travis, do you get these feet nibbling fish pedicure places over in the states? I just put that and leeches together in my mind... new business opportunity :)

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 24, 2011
at 10:27 PM

@Travis - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/wellbeing/7833539/Fish-pedicure-with-100-hungry-creatures.html

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 24, 2011
at 10:26 PM

Travis, do you get those feet nibbling fish pedicure places over in the states? I just put that and leeches together in my mind...

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on October 24, 2011
at 10:26 PM

Evidence based medicine is settled science of the past. It is fertile ground for those who prefer never to venture into the realms of new ideas challenging the CW of the past. Lots of new postulates come from your kooks that are exploring the areas of science not yet settled. Forward thinkers are ostrasized and ridiculed for their whacky suppositions and postulates. Far too many physicians have been exiled out of research because their work is too far out and unacceptable to the all knowing academia...only to have those very ideas become CW in 20 years....to be again challeged by new kooks.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on October 24, 2011
at 10:03 PM

Lots 'o' Leeches would probably be a fairly effective treatment for hemochromatosis...just sayin'.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on October 24, 2011
at 09:11 PM

She walks the talk! Look at hoe tan she is!

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 24, 2011
at 09:08 PM

All the knowledge in the brain bleaches the hair white too.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:53 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QUChSlUEH0 I am watching her Mercola interview. She blinks a lot. GREAT dopamine reserves.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:51 PM

+1 Yon Peezy... Great resource!

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:50 PM

I would add Peter's Hyperlipid blog to this great list

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:46 PM

P.S. "Easy A" was an awesome movie on Netflix instant watch.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:45 PM

Her page is awesome! Plus she's 65 years old, which is awesome. She got her bachelors in biophysics in 1968, which is awesome. All around, I'd grade this an A for "Awesome".

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on October 24, 2011
at 08:43 PM

dr. stephen cunnane's work is some of the best. if you are at a university, you should be able to access his papers.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on October 24, 2011
at 08:42 PM

Strongly agree with Rose. And she saved me having to goo after a link! :) That's a good starter for the discussion!

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:35 PM

Are there any legit physiologists who think ketosis is good for healthy people?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:34 PM

Are there any legit physiologists who think ketosis is good?

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:34 PM

Well since he is your professor ask him for the research that backs up his claim that gluconeogenesis is hard on the body....seems like he should be able to provide some evidence for these claims if he's going to be teaching them, aside from his authoritative role of course. Sounds like he's willing to engage in discussion so thats good!

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:33 PM

If you are running away from a predator you aren't going on a 5 mile run. You run up a tree really fast. Your stores can handle the brief stress but repeated over and over without adequate sugar refuel and your body will start to breakdown from all the stress hormones needed to turn protein into glucose.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:31 PM

I would take some leaches over most of the symptom based woo that flies out of the doc in a boxes these days. Probably with better effect too.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on October 24, 2011
at 08:29 PM

Matt - you are a dummy. You and Kamal should be friends on FB

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on October 24, 2011
at 08:14 PM

Woo is good, bring on the leeches! ;-)

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:13 PM

...rather than just pointing out the rather straightforward misconceptions that the professor has.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:12 PM

Dexterity I think it's beyond fabulous that your criticism of Matthew is that he's not able to separate his thinking from the evidence. Not many can. Luckily we have he-who-shall-remain-nameless and his minions for that! (and bowing to the brilliant P for this one!)

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:12 PM

Electrons may be interesting to muse about, but Quilt's article may not be the best thing for convincing a skeptical professor..."On the plane home from the AHS at UCLA I was reading a series of physics papers that I had mentioned to “The Kracken” while at the AHS. I asked Matt a rather jumbled question this weekend I had from this paper about a chemistry and electron transport and unusual physical effects in relation to oxidative phosphorylation that occurs at the mitochondrial level when we eat. He looked at me like I was nuts..." AHS, Kracken, and quantum effects may be a bit indirect....

Medium avatar

(39831)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:12 PM

Glycogen and electrolyte repletion is very important for athletes, but few of them are going to need sports drinks.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:09 PM

I suppose I should be happy to see that feebs can detach their lips long enough to type...yet I'm not.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:06 PM

Dexter, i'm curious as to where the hell we should be looking if not in the evidence-based medicine box. shouldn't you science-y guys be trying to figure out mechanisms rather than promoting woo?

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on October 24, 2011
at 08:05 PM

Dextery, you're the one living in a quilted box. Is it soft and cuddly in there?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:50 PM

I never said I didn't like Dr K. I often don't agree with him, but you must admit he can come off as a bit of a kook. The use of the word quantum is often a bad sign.

07ca188c8dac3a17f629dd87198d2098

(7970)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:42 PM

Dextery, it's that Dr K comes off like a kook to anyone reading casually.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:33 PM

Yeah, we get it matthew...you don't like Dr K....Thinking outside of evidence based medicine box is not your strong suit.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:33 PM

For online resources, Stephan Phinney's research is a good start. http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2 . Or try Phinney and Volek's book, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living.

88817c69d6684c8342b243220f1aa8a6

(88)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:31 PM

He specifically said KETOSIS! Which I called him on after class - asked him if he meant ketoacidosis and he said no, that ketosis is dangerous because gluconeogenesis is hard on the body and that the brain can't get enough glucose that way. But I was under the impression that the brain could function just fine in ketosis from all the paleo reading I've done...

88817c69d6684c8342b243220f1aa8a6

(88)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:29 PM

Thanks. I would love it if he would stop going on and on about drinking sports drinks and how important a high sugar diet is to my class and the classes that follow. That's why I want to show him the other research :). So he can mention that high sugar isn't the only way to run your body!!!

88817c69d6684c8342b243220f1aa8a6

(88)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:28 PM

Thank you! I'm looking forward to getting his feedback on all this stuff.

88817c69d6684c8342b243220f1aa8a6

(88)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:27 PM

Thank you very much!! Awesome!

88817c69d6684c8342b243220f1aa8a6

(88)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:27 PM

Thank you so much!!!

88817c69d6684c8342b243220f1aa8a6

(88)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:26 PM

I guess it was just the way he implied that animals running away from predators would have access to tons of sugar to fuel themselves. When I asked him about that ("wouldn't the animals be getting their fuel from eating other animals and from plants") he didn't really have an answer. Obviously they didn't have sports drinks, though...

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:20 PM

"DO FOOD ELECTRONS IMPART A QUANTUM EFFECT?" ????

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:12 PM

http://jackkruse.com/?s=ketones Just two places on Dr K's site.

Ae4d2eb4ca16ca45d98cd199837de092

(165)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:10 PM

Would have been helpful if I posted the other link I referred to, huh? http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/ketones-and-ketosis/metabolism-and-ketosis/ There you go! Enjoy, and good luck!

  • 88817c69d6684c8342b243220f1aa8a6

    asked by

    (88)
  • Views
    2.2K
  • Last Activity
    1259D AGO
Frontpage book

Get FREE instant access to our Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!

9 Answers

10
0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:55 PM

Hi Ashley,

There are a few good links here:

Low Carbohydrate Diet Review: Shifting the Paradigm

Jamie Scott has a lot of well thought through and scientific posts there that are worth reading anyway.

Also I would be cautious about thinking in terms of proving points to someone. Few things that are discussed here are proven. It is more about asking questions and thinking about what we think we know.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on October 25, 2011
at 01:06 AM

+1 good link...

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on October 25, 2011
at 12:22 AM

Why would someone downvote this?

88817c69d6684c8342b243220f1aa8a6

(88)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:27 PM

Thank you so much!!!

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:50 PM

I would add Peter's Hyperlipid blog to this great list

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 26, 2011
at 02:10 PM

The paper on Alzheimers tries to make the claim that high carb diets can lead to Alzheimers based on AGEs but a diet of high GI carbs that raises insulin would protect you from AGEs and increase cholesterol production which is protective according to the study. The weight loss one is ridiculous as well, they basically tested a standard american diet versus a ketogenic diet.....

5
0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:34 PM

I've been appreciating what a lady named Stephanie Seneff has to say about cholesterol these days - the benefits of it that is. Here is her page from MIT - since she is on faculty there http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/ and here is her blog: http://stephanie-on-health.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2011-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&updated-max=2012-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&max-results=14.

Since she has the power of MIT and several published papers maybe your prof would consider what she has to say.

I believe Art Devany also linked to her paper on obesity.

She is pretty anti carb, pro cholesterol pro sunshine especially as it relates to Alzheimer's and ADD. She is vehemently anti-statin.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:53 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QUChSlUEH0 I am watching her Mercola interview. She blinks a lot. GREAT dopamine reserves.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:46 PM

P.S. "Easy A" was an awesome movie on Netflix instant watch.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:45 PM

Her page is awesome! Plus she's 65 years old, which is awesome. She got her bachelors in biophysics in 1968, which is awesome. All around, I'd grade this an A for "Awesome".

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on October 24, 2011
at 09:08 PM

All the knowledge in the brain bleaches the hair white too.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on October 24, 2011
at 09:11 PM

She walks the talk! Look at hoe tan she is!

5
7d0c3ea9bf8be00b93e6433d8f125ac3

(7540)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:03 PM

Are you sure he didn't say ketoACIDOSIS, or perhaps confuse the two terms? I mean, it's true that ketoacidosis is a pathological state and is very dangerous. It's a weird mistake for a biochem professor to make, but people seem to confuse ketosis and ketoacidosis a lot.

He seems confused about what Atkins is, but he's correct that an all (lean) protein diet isn't good for us.

He's right that the brain does, in fact, need some glucose. You don't necessarily have to eat it, but it will get it somehow.

Most of this doesn't sound so bad, just kind of oversimplified, probably because it's a first year course.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:34 PM

Well since he is your professor ask him for the research that backs up his claim that gluconeogenesis is hard on the body....seems like he should be able to provide some evidence for these claims if he's going to be teaching them, aside from his authoritative role of course. Sounds like he's willing to engage in discussion so thats good!

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on October 25, 2011
at 12:06 AM

I would make the distinction between ketosis and low carb....there is sufficient evidence in many of the bellow links that low carb is healthy. There is ample reason to believe our ancestors floated in and out of ketosis on an ongoing basis and that they probably remained in ketosis seasonally. Ambimorph's responses to this showing why ketosis is not "stressful" still stands as far as I am concerned.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:34 PM

Are there any legit physiologists who think ketosis is good?

88817c69d6684c8342b243220f1aa8a6

(88)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:31 PM

He specifically said KETOSIS! Which I called him on after class - asked him if he meant ketoacidosis and he said no, that ketosis is dangerous because gluconeogenesis is hard on the body and that the brain can't get enough glucose that way. But I was under the impression that the brain could function just fine in ketosis from all the paleo reading I've done...

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:35 PM

Are there any legit physiologists who think ketosis is good for healthy people?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 26, 2011
at 02:02 PM

Where is the evidence for our ancestors floating in and out of ketosis? Whos ancestors?

4
Medium avatar

on October 24, 2011
at 06:56 PM

Strictly speaking, the brain can't run completely without carbohydrates (glucose), but that glucose doesn't necessarily need to be ingested as such, since we can create it from glucogenic amino acids.

The rest of the points are controversial, even in the paleosphere, but I suppose you could point to the many hundreds of people who are eating in this way with no apparent ill effects.

88817c69d6684c8342b243220f1aa8a6

(88)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:29 PM

Thanks. I would love it if he would stop going on and on about drinking sports drinks and how important a high sugar diet is to my class and the classes that follow. That's why I want to show him the other research :). So he can mention that high sugar isn't the only way to run your body!!!

Medium avatar

(39831)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:12 PM

Glycogen and electrolyte repletion is very important for athletes, but few of them are going to need sports drinks.

3
Ae4d2eb4ca16ca45d98cd199837de092

on October 24, 2011
at 07:09 PM

I might recommend these two article from Dr. Michael Eades. These are from a little while back and are all about the process the body goes through while adapting to the low-carb/ketogenic diet. These certainly helped me on my way to taking up the paleolithic diet.

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/ketones-and-ketosis/tips-tricks-for-starting-or-restarting-low-carb-pt-i/

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/saturated-fat/tips-tricks-for-starting-or-restarting-low-carb-pt-ii/

This one, also form Dr. Eades, is simply titled "Metabolism and Ketosis," and i have found it to be most helpful in showing the way in which the human metabolism works in the absence or restriction of carbohydrates. I do hope these will help both you and your professor come to a better understanding of the Ketogenic process. Good luck!

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:51 PM

+1 Yon Peezy... Great resource!

Ae4d2eb4ca16ca45d98cd199837de092

(165)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:10 PM

Would have been helpful if I posted the other link I referred to, huh? http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/ketones-and-ketosis/metabolism-and-ketosis/ There you go! Enjoy, and good luck!

88817c69d6684c8342b243220f1aa8a6

(88)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:27 PM

Thank you very much!! Awesome!

2
6da7ce6a4a250c46a6e78b5b4e22da83

(987)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:17 PM

I'm not sure this is scientific enough, but it should be a good starting point for discussion and further research: http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/ketones-and-ketosis/metabolism-and-ketosis/

88817c69d6684c8342b243220f1aa8a6

(88)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:28 PM

Thank you! I'm looking forward to getting his feedback on all this stuff.

2
E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 24, 2011
at 06:55 PM

He's right in regards to sugar and athletic function.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on October 24, 2011
at 10:49 PM

Or not. Look at the first link in Jeff's answer just to get started.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 25, 2011
at 02:09 AM

(not to denigrate your athleticism, just pointing out that there is a gap between a normally fit person and an athlete like a football player or weightlifter)

88817c69d6684c8342b243220f1aa8a6

(88)

on October 24, 2011
at 07:26 PM

I guess it was just the way he implied that animals running away from predators would have access to tons of sugar to fuel themselves. When I asked him about that ("wouldn't the animals be getting their fuel from eating other animals and from plants") he didn't really have an answer. Obviously they didn't have sports drinks, though...

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 24, 2011
at 08:33 PM

If you are running away from a predator you aren't going on a 5 mile run. You run up a tree really fast. Your stores can handle the brief stress but repeated over and over without adequate sugar refuel and your body will start to breakdown from all the stress hormones needed to turn protein into glucose.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 25, 2011
at 01:43 AM

Tell what to Novak Djokavic? Cliff said "that is why ketogenic diets don't work for athletes". I am not agreeing or disagreeing with this point, but Novak is gluten-free, not on a ketogenic diet. Apolo Uno (sic) is the spokesman for 5-dollar footlongs on Subway commercials. I just saw one today in fact. Ketogenic diets obviously are not optimal if you are an anaerobic-heavy athlete.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on October 25, 2011
at 02:02 AM

Dextery- It is obvious for this very simple reason (please correct me if I am wrong). Anaerobic athletes requires much more muscle glycogen than do other atheletes. One cannot replenish glycogen stores to full capacity or supersaturation (ala glycogen depletion and repletion cycles) if one is on a ketogenic diet. You may be doing much better than 10 years ago, which is great, but I don't think you are an anaerobic athlete. Bodybuilder? Powerlifter? Caber-tosser?

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on October 25, 2011
at 01:57 AM

Why is it obvious? What evidence shows that ketogenic diets are not optimal for your anaerobic athlete? CW does dictate that it is not optimal but where is the proof? For a 68 old guy, since I have been ketogenic for a couple of years, my athletic performance is is now better than it ever was 10 years ago when I was carbing.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on October 25, 2011
at 06:50 PM

What? It says "Examining the results of these two ketogenic diet performance studies together indicates that both groups experienced a lag in performance across the first week or two of carbohydrate restriction, after which both peak aerobic power and sub-maximal (60–70% of VO2max) endurance performance were fully restored. In both studies, one with untrained subjects and the other with highly trained athletes who maintained their training throughout the study, there was no loss of VO2max despite the virtual absence of dietary carbohydrate for 4–6 weeks"

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 25, 2011
at 12:03 AM

They lost the ability to sprint and cycle over about 65% vo2max. This is why ketogenic diets don't work for athletes.

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on October 25, 2011
at 01:24 AM

Cliff, tell that to Novak Djokavic, Premier Tennis Champ, Charles Washington, paleo endurance athlete zeroinginonhealth.com Ursla Grobler, zeroinginonhealth.com Apolo Uno, Speed skating racer or just look at this PH link http://paleohacks.com/questions/11208/are-there-celebrities-who-are-paleo-whom-we-can-cite-as-good-examples#axzz1bkTZdxrm

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 25, 2011
at 11:45 AM

By the way just because your so-called athletic performance is better now, based on your claims doesn't mean anything. Are you an elite athlete? Have you tried adding in carbs recently?

3a567c1637db69f1455ce35e78201a2c

(1054)

on October 25, 2011
at 12:45 AM

Cliff, tell that to Novak Kjokavic, Premier Tennis Champ, Charles Washington, paleo endurance athlete http://www.zeroinginonhealth.com/ Ursla Grobler, http://www.zeroinginonhealth.com/ Apolo Uno, Speed skating racer or just look at this PH link...http://paleohacks.com/questions/11208/are-there-celebrities-who-are-paleo-whom-we-can-cite-as-good-examples#axzz1bkTZdxrm

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 26, 2011
at 02:11 PM

Exercise lowers your t3 as well, drinking sugar during exercise will protect you against this.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 26, 2011
at 02:01 PM

Do you see the word can't in my answer? You can do whatever you want on a ketogenic diet but you will be sub par.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 25, 2011
at 11:44 AM

Dextery its obvious because we know how to read, go read jeffs first link. You can't perform maximal efforts on a ketogenic diet. Charles washington is the only guy you mentioned who is on a ketogenic diet and he is not an athlete, he is a random dude who runs marathons and loses.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 26, 2011
at 02:00 PM

Endurance sports require you to sprint.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on October 26, 2011
at 08:10 PM

Yes. I saw the word "can't" in all caps above. Along with "real".

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 25, 2011
at 09:43 PM

WHAT? "The bicyclist subjects of this study noted a modest decline in their energy level while on training rides during the first week of the Inuit diet, after which subjective performance was reasonably restored except for their sprint capability, which remained constrained during the period of carbohydrate restriction." GUESS THEY CAN'T BE REAL ATHLETES BECAUSE REAL ATHLETES SPRINT

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on October 26, 2011
at 11:55 AM

That's a good point. It concludes "Therapeutic use of ketogenic diets should not require constraint of most forms of physical labor or recreational activity, with the one caveat that anaerobic (ie, weight lifting or sprint) performance is limited by the low muscle glycogen levels induced by a ketogenic diet, and this would strongly discourage its use under most conditions of competitive athletics." Of course, constrained does not equate to "can't", and also the question concerned endurance sports.

1
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on October 24, 2011
at 08:48 PM

Check out Stephen Cunnane's stuff. If you are in school, you should be able to access his papers.

Answer Question


Get FREE instant access to our
Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!