-1

votes

Calling out Sustained Fitness

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created July 31, 2013 at 5:41 PM

I would like to see some rebuttabls of my statement that high sugar/carb diets are the most effective for performance.

I would also like to see your evidence to back up:

"High sugar diets are horrible for performance. The body does much better using fat for most of its energy, sparing glycogen for strictly extremely intense work. ??? SUSTAINEDfitness 2 days ago"

My position:

Decades of research has clearly demonstrated that glucose-electrolyte drinks ingested during and after training and competition can help stave off dehydration, delay fatigue in both longer duration activities and higher intensity, glycogen dependent repeated efforts, decrease the stress response to exercise, and can aid in glycogen resynthesis. So, any glycogen dependent bout not accompanied by some sort of glucose-electrolyte solution is missing something.

And, with some recent research demonstrating the performance boosting and recovery enhancing benefits of adding protein to such a glucose-electrolyte drink, an easy way to instantly increase total daily energy intake as well as improve training quality, recovery, and adaptation, is to sip a protein + glucose + electrolyte beverage during training as well as drinking one immediately after training.

Typically, as athletes can use an average of anywhere from 30-60g of carbohydrate per hour of training, I recommend athletes sip a drink containing at least 30g of carbohydrate during each hour of training. Also, as athletes can lose an average of anywhere from 500-1000ml of water per hour, I recommend that this carbohydrate be mixed with at least 500ml of water.

Paleo plus pre, peri and post workout non paleo enhancement.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on August 01, 2013
at 02:16 PM

It was a full body workout. I used to think this level of carb intake was crazy too, but I am finally seeing muscle growth. I go home and eat similar amount of carbs at night too, then on non workout days meals look pretty low carb. I got a glucometer, and my blood sugar is looking better too. I could keep my blood sugar steady with low carb, but any deviation would put it out of whack for days. It is exciting to see 250g of carbs handled perfectly. That's what heavy lifting will do for you.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10480)

on August 01, 2013
at 02:20 AM

IT'S WHAT PLANTS CRAVE!

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10480)

on August 01, 2013
at 01:20 AM

Dafuq?!?! Butthurt level: 8.5.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 01, 2013
at 12:07 AM

Agree 100%. The op seems to equate you with low carb? Just calling that out as bs

8894ece18cd108655ed18f2056172c1c

(250)

on July 31, 2013
at 08:38 PM

I've seen some very respected researchers (Jeff Volek for example) state keto-adaptation takes about four weeks. They criticize studies conducted over the course of a week or so as being an unfair portrayal of low-carb diets. They point to 4 week studies as much more accurate representations of the diet and its effects. And anyway, prior to keto-adaptation, athletic performance would be impaired, not improved. So if these subjects weren't keto adapted, the study provides an even stronger rebuttal to the OP's claim that ample carbohydrate intake is required for peak athletic performance.

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 08:03 PM

And a couple hundred grams of carbs per day is NOT a "high sugar" diet.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on July 31, 2013
at 08:01 PM

"Should you be eating carbs? YES, probably a couple hundred grams per day. – SUSTAINEDfitness yesterday"

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 07:43 PM

And I stand by the fact that high sugar was not optimal for athletic performance. It works for some, but it is definitely not optimal for most. And I assure you I am not the "skinny buck fiddy" you referenced.

9f52f85c3964445d7b16c94a890f6136

on July 31, 2013
at 07:17 PM

"High sugar diets are horrible for performance. The body does much better using fat for most of its energy, sparing glycogen for strictly extremely intense work. – SUSTAINEDfitness 2 days ago" to You are the one trying to say your way is the only way. – SUSTAINEDfitness 12 mins ago

9f52f85c3964445d7b16c94a890f6136

on July 31, 2013
at 07:16 PM

Stop throwing out the VLC straw man I said that high sugar was optimal for athletic performance, you said it wasn't, no one mentioned VLC!

9f52f85c3964445d7b16c94a890f6136

on July 31, 2013
at 07:13 PM

How am I the one saying m,y way is the only way when you said that sugar sucks for performance. You are totally backtracking!

9f52f85c3964445d7b16c94a890f6136

on July 31, 2013
at 07:12 PM

I have lost bodyfat, being under 8% bodyfat however is a problem so when I get too low I tend to go on overeating cycles to keep above 200. By the way brag about your bench press, but we all know benching double your body weight natty is a hell of a lot easier at a skinny buck fiddy :D

C6648ab69e5a1560c7585fe3ba7108fb

(880)

on July 31, 2013
at 07:09 PM

Moderators, calling for a close of this topic; it is not in keeping with the intention of the site, which is to answer questions, not as a debating ground (From the FAQ of the site: Avoid asking questions that are overly subjective, argumentative, or require extended discussion. Questions about politics and religion are not allowed on PaleoHacks as they inspire strong, emotional reactions that quickly devolve into insults. This is not a discussion board nor a blog, this is a place for questions that can be answered! )

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 07:04 PM

You are the one trying to say your way is the only way.

27e79ef3308bb5f2d7bd04ee7eea7b79

(2038)

on July 31, 2013
at 07:03 PM

I'm not sure if 38 days is enough to become truly keto-adapted to the point where athletic performance is optimized. This study doesn't seem to measure what it claims to measure, to me.

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 07:02 PM

Gruffalo, less than two weeks ago you posted how the fat is melting off with your high carb low fat diet. So I take it you have finally reached ideal weight since then?

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 07:01 PM

I am not diverging from my original stance. None of my posts advocate VLC, and on many occasions I have recommended eating more to some people. But carbs are not needed for performance. I don't regularly count my carbs but when I do I get about 150g per day on average. Mountain sprints are a piece of cake, BTW.

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 06:58 PM

Kevin....shall we do weight lifting instead? Say, twice body weight on bench press as many times as possible?

9f52f85c3964445d7b16c94a890f6136

on July 31, 2013
at 06:58 PM

You are diverging from your origional stance. You said fat was a better source of energy for the body to use. I do not want to lose fat. I do not need to lose fat. We were talking about performance, lets not try and wriggle our way out of it. I will not keep up because I would not be there. Would you like to pay your own way to the UK and we can do mountain sprints up the brecon beacons? Also the fact you are having to throw a sprint challenge out there really does show the impotence of your argument :p Also hill runs suck. Try fartlek up and down mountains with just a hydopack on your.

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 06:54 PM

Can I ask why you ingested 250g of carbs post workout? The entire body can only store about 400-500g and most of that is specific to the muscle it is in.

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 06:40 PM

Perfectly well said.

8894ece18cd108655ed18f2056172c1c

(250)

on July 31, 2013
at 06:36 PM

Yeah, I'm sort of using the ketogenic diet as a proxy for Paleo here. The bottom line is that the study showed carbohydrate reduction had no measurable impact on performance. Certainly flies in the face of the suggestion that athleticism is dependent upon carbs.

D396b126240f584bc358e6e4fd84e9e3

(455)

on July 31, 2013
at 06:34 PM

Haha, a hill run. Yeah, that'll show him...

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 06:31 PM

So true. Although I do not advocate kerogen in diets, and prefer moderately low carb for glycogen replenishment, the research backs up what you say.

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 06:26 PM

I would hate to see you stuck somewhere without your carb beverages. You would probably just pass out from lack of energy.

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 06:25 PM

I am not advocating LC, I am just saying that high carb is not needed for optimum performance.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on July 31, 2013
at 06:24 PM

Someone's grumpy.

9f52f85c3964445d7b16c94a890f6136

on July 31, 2013
at 06:21 PM

Come at me bro.

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4 Answers

3
8894ece18cd108655ed18f2056172c1c

(250)

on July 31, 2013
at 06:28 PM

A recent study looked at the impact of a ketogenic diet on healthy, active individuals. Subjects performed a treadmill test before and after their transition to a ketogenic diet and were evaluated via several metrics to gauge the impact of the dietary shift. This is an excerpt from the findings:

"The drastic reduction of carbohydrates had no statistically significant influence on running performance judged by the time to exhaustion, VO2max and respiratory compensation points."

Here's a link to the study if you want to take a look: http://www.nume.de/index.php/nume/article/view/10

8894ece18cd108655ed18f2056172c1c

(250)

on July 31, 2013
at 06:36 PM

Yeah, I'm sort of using the ketogenic diet as a proxy for Paleo here. The bottom line is that the study showed carbohydrate reduction had no measurable impact on performance. Certainly flies in the face of the suggestion that athleticism is dependent upon carbs.

27e79ef3308bb5f2d7bd04ee7eea7b79

(2038)

on July 31, 2013
at 07:03 PM

I'm not sure if 38 days is enough to become truly keto-adapted to the point where athletic performance is optimized. This study doesn't seem to measure what it claims to measure, to me.

8894ece18cd108655ed18f2056172c1c

(250)

on July 31, 2013
at 08:38 PM

I've seen some very respected researchers (Jeff Volek for example) state keto-adaptation takes about four weeks. They criticize studies conducted over the course of a week or so as being an unfair portrayal of low-carb diets. They point to 4 week studies as much more accurate representations of the diet and its effects. And anyway, prior to keto-adaptation, athletic performance would be impaired, not improved. So if these subjects weren't keto adapted, the study provides an even stronger rebuttal to the OP's claim that ample carbohydrate intake is required for peak athletic performance.

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 06:31 PM

So true. Although I do not advocate kerogen in diets, and prefer moderately low carb for glycogen replenishment, the research backs up what you say.

2
Ebb10603524dd22621c1155dd7ddf106

(19150)

on July 31, 2013
at 06:39 PM

calling-out-sustained-fitness

That pretty much summarizes my reaction to this "question."

Honestly, I don't agree completely with the cherry-picked quote from SUSTAINEDfitness that you included in the original post, but I agree with your points even less. As someone that often works out at intense levels for longer than an hour in duration, I've seen too many people suckling on sugary sports drinks as a crutch get blown away in performance by those that either don't supplement intense exercise at all (well, at least for <1.5hours or so) or those that use real food and water alone.

No one is going to argue that drinking water during exercise, eating food and replenishing salt during longer intense exercise, and a eating plate of good food after exercise can stave off wasting, and encourage either repair or growth. Depending on your personal goals, the food may be high in carbohydrates or protein or both, sure. What people are going to argue with is that sugary sports drinks and processed food like protein drinks are somehow required for optimal performance.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10480)

on August 01, 2013
at 02:20 AM

IT'S WHAT PLANTS CRAVE!

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 06:40 PM

Perfectly well said.

1
7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on July 31, 2013
at 06:52 PM

This question is making me grumpy. The running stuff- and a lot of these studies are run on long distance runners- seems to suggest fat is a good idea for endurance stuff. Most gym work/body builder stuff needs carbs. It is not clear that anyone needs to be drinking sugar drinks throughout a workout for their carbs. I just ate about 250g of carbs post workout. I don't know, maybe I could have lifted a little more in the gym if I ate some sugar there, but I am not in the gym to be awesome in the gym. I am at the gym to be awesome at the rest of my life. I want the metabolic headroom necessary to deal with real world stuff with ease.

Unfortunately, I also cannot say those sugary drinks are 'horrible' for optimal performance. There are a lot of kids who can still handle all that sugar, and as long as there are way stations along the side of the road, the kids can run all the way to Texas on that sugar. It is, again, when the real world kicks in, and there ain't nobody on that road- that's when it starts making more sense to not have to depend on a constant drip of glucose.

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 06:54 PM

Can I ask why you ingested 250g of carbs post workout? The entire body can only store about 400-500g and most of that is specific to the muscle it is in.

9f52f85c3964445d7b16c94a890f6136

on July 31, 2013
at 07:17 PM

"High sugar diets are horrible for performance. The body does much better using fat for most of its energy, sparing glycogen for strictly extremely intense work. – SUSTAINEDfitness 2 days ago" to You are the one trying to say your way is the only way. – SUSTAINEDfitness 12 mins ago

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on August 01, 2013
at 02:16 PM

It was a full body workout. I used to think this level of carb intake was crazy too, but I am finally seeing muscle growth. I go home and eat similar amount of carbs at night too, then on non workout days meals look pretty low carb. I got a glucometer, and my blood sugar is looking better too. I could keep my blood sugar steady with low carb, but any deviation would put it out of whack for days. It is exciting to see 250g of carbs handled perfectly. That's what heavy lifting will do for you.

0
C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 06:22 PM

Decades of research showed that cutting carbs led to weight loss and then decades of research showed that cutting fat led to weight loss. Now research is beginning to turn again to show that reducing carbs was right all along. Yes, if you can only burn carbs for fuel, then performance will suffer when you exercise too long without ingesting any carbs. Please come to Boulder Colorado and we will do a hill run. I will bring zero snacks or water, and you will not keep up.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on July 31, 2013
at 08:01 PM

"Should you be eating carbs? YES, probably a couple hundred grams per day. – SUSTAINEDfitness yesterday"

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 06:58 PM

Kevin....shall we do weight lifting instead? Say, twice body weight on bench press as many times as possible?

9f52f85c3964445d7b16c94a890f6136

on July 31, 2013
at 07:16 PM

Stop throwing out the VLC straw man I said that high sugar was optimal for athletic performance, you said it wasn't, no one mentioned VLC!

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 08:03 PM

And a couple hundred grams of carbs per day is NOT a "high sugar" diet.

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 07:43 PM

And I stand by the fact that high sugar was not optimal for athletic performance. It works for some, but it is definitely not optimal for most. And I assure you I am not the "skinny buck fiddy" you referenced.

9f52f85c3964445d7b16c94a890f6136

on July 31, 2013
at 07:12 PM

I have lost bodyfat, being under 8% bodyfat however is a problem so when I get too low I tend to go on overeating cycles to keep above 200. By the way brag about your bench press, but we all know benching double your body weight natty is a hell of a lot easier at a skinny buck fiddy :D

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 06:25 PM

I am not advocating LC, I am just saying that high carb is not needed for optimum performance.

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 07:04 PM

You are the one trying to say your way is the only way.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 01, 2013
at 12:07 AM

Agree 100%. The op seems to equate you with low carb? Just calling that out as bs

D396b126240f584bc358e6e4fd84e9e3

(455)

on July 31, 2013
at 06:34 PM

Haha, a hill run. Yeah, that'll show him...

9f52f85c3964445d7b16c94a890f6136

on July 31, 2013
at 07:13 PM

How am I the one saying m,y way is the only way when you said that sugar sucks for performance. You are totally backtracking!

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 07:02 PM

Gruffalo, less than two weeks ago you posted how the fat is melting off with your high carb low fat diet. So I take it you have finally reached ideal weight since then?

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 31, 2013
at 07:01 PM

I am not diverging from my original stance. None of my posts advocate VLC, and on many occasions I have recommended eating more to some people. But carbs are not needed for performance. I don't regularly count my carbs but when I do I get about 150g per day on average. Mountain sprints are a piece of cake, BTW.

9f52f85c3964445d7b16c94a890f6136

on July 31, 2013
at 06:58 PM

You are diverging from your origional stance. You said fat was a better source of energy for the body to use. I do not want to lose fat. I do not need to lose fat. We were talking about performance, lets not try and wriggle our way out of it. I will not keep up because I would not be there. Would you like to pay your own way to the UK and we can do mountain sprints up the brecon beacons? Also the fact you are having to throw a sprint challenge out there really does show the impotence of your argument :p Also hill runs suck. Try fartlek up and down mountains with just a hydopack on your.

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