1

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JOSH VALES is Anti-Paleo, does he have studies to back him up?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created August 04, 2012 at 10:31 PM

"Even grassfed Meat creates estrogenic substances called Heterocyclic Amines when grassfed beef is cooked. One of them is called "PhIP" which is estrogenic to males. In other words, if you are a man, and you eat grassfed beef, it slowly leads you to grow fat and more feminized. The natural substances in Grassfed meat contain compounds that can effeminize men. Eating the meat in a paleo diet, which contains "PhiP" or 2-amino-1-methyl-6-phenylimidazo [4,5-b]pyridine (PhIP), is now known to effeminze boys and men"

Here's another one:

"You appear fine on the outside, thinking things are great, meanwhile you???ve thrown your body into a dangerous state of what???s called ketosis. Eating a high-protein diet, deficient in carbs, actually begins teaching your body to use protein to burn. Burning protein as fuel because there are no carbs to burn. This teaches your own body to burn muscle. It depletes muscle. People think that eating meat and protein builds muscle, but in fact, eating a lowcarb diet with mainly protein and fat is actually teaching your own body to use protein as its fuel, so you???ve actually taught your body to digest itself. Your body now needs to use your own muscle tissue to operate, breaking down and destroying your muscle tissue."

Here's the full Vales article: http://howtobuildmusclewithoutweights.com/build-muscle/failed-paleo-diet-crossfit-eating-paleolithic-failures-exposed-greg-glassman-crossfit-founder-fat-obese-with-crossfit-puke-bucket-rhabdo-the-clown-vomit-t-shirt-6a-and-last-stop-fat-loss-perfo/

Does anyone know if he actually has any actual studies to support his opinion such as the one above or is he just bashing paleo for the hell of it and thus should be ignored? Man-boobs from eating grass-fed beef? Eating low-carb paleo burns protein instead of fat? WTF? Is this guy on crack?

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on August 06, 2012
at 12:04 AM

Pics or it isn't happenin'. :D

54f75fb54778cfa947990bec1175307a

(665)

on August 05, 2012
at 11:41 PM

I think there is no danger eating high protein diet during ketosis as there probably won't be any ketosis. He obviously isn't aware that ketogenic diet is high fat, not high protein.

D7cc4049bef85d1979efbd853dc07c8e

(4029)

on August 05, 2012
at 09:01 PM

Exactly, I KNEW this was asked about months ago.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on August 05, 2012
at 07:58 PM

Stabby, much like the raccoons that live near my apartment complex, I don't see you around here as much so I'm excited when you pop up.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on August 05, 2012
at 03:37 PM

Ho hum. Not even worth the time to debunk.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 05, 2012
at 05:12 AM

Yeah exactly, that's the point. Dose makes the poison and just because you can make a hyperbolic claim like ZOMG CARCINOGEN ESTROGENIC doesn't mean that it's very relevant.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 05, 2012
at 05:05 AM

^ Vegetable and fruit do contain carcinogens. They are commonly referred to as "anti-oxidants" aka polyphenols, and in large doses those chemicals do cause cancers. When it comes to toxicity, dose is everything.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 05, 2012
at 05:01 AM

Paleo man, post fire, boiled his water by throwing hot rocks in it, according to what I heard. Although hes half right, paleo man did drink from rivers and springs which do have minerals tap water lacks, and didn't have nasties like added flouride and aluminum. Technically the most paleo water is expensive european mineral water. What hes doing is called "hyperbole", its a logical fallacy.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 05, 2012
at 03:58 AM

Yeah the HCAs from lighter cooking techniques are rather negligible and are neutralized by various antioxidant types in the same meal like EGCG from green tea. Or even endogenous defenses like glutathione if they're high. HCAs can be a non-issue if you make them one. Although i do think that there is a danger to overcooking meat which many paleos could heed. But his ideas are junk science, what you suggest would be using the scientific method in an intelligent manner. It's an epidemic! Hey let's not eat vegetables because they have carcinogens. Brilliant, lol.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 05, 2012
at 12:42 AM

Ok, while I do think it's good to discuss criticsms like this (I have many myself), after a thorough read of his blog and that site I can say its a ton of shit. Absolutely bonkers outer space tinfoil level BS

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 05, 2012
at 12:33 AM

Wow, that does make him sound pretty dumb.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 05, 2012
at 12:32 AM

I think it's a great topic for discussion.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 05, 2012
at 12:26 AM

dont be surprised. is this any different to hard-core paleo followers who think its awesome to hunt and kill their own game using self-made weapons (including letting the animal bleed to death over hours whilst its got a home made arrow lodged between its ribs)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 05, 2012
at 12:22 AM

legitimate question

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 05, 2012
at 12:21 AM

only way to know for sure is a clinical trial

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on August 04, 2012
at 11:10 PM

Posting a link to a blog is not a real question. Posting a link to a retarded blog...

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10 Answers

12
A1a7413b99e03bc77f02d95c4170ea43

on August 04, 2012
at 10:35 PM

To quote this ridiculous author:

"In Crossfit, on a Paleo Zone diet, you would truthfully NOT be permitted to drink tap water. This means you can???t drink out of the water fountain in the gym to hydrate yourself. You can???t bring tap water from your house, or even drink any water from your faucet in your house if you???re following Paleo. Why? Cavemen didn???t have treated water. You can???t drink disinfected water. You have to go outside the gym, or out of your house, and drink out of a puddle. That???s what cavemen did. And according to the paleo diet, you are actually DESIGNED for that."

Do you really need anything else? He's obviously an attention-seeking moron.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 05, 2012
at 12:33 AM

Wow, that does make him sound pretty dumb.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 05, 2012
at 05:01 AM

Paleo man, post fire, boiled his water by throwing hot rocks in it, according to what I heard. Although hes half right, paleo man did drink from rivers and springs which do have minerals tap water lacks, and didn't have nasties like added flouride and aluminum. Technically the most paleo water is expensive european mineral water. What hes doing is called "hyperbole", its a logical fallacy.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 05, 2012
at 12:26 AM

dont be surprised. is this any different to hard-core paleo followers who think its awesome to hunt and kill their own game using self-made weapons (including letting the animal bleed to death over hours whilst its got a home made arrow lodged between its ribs)

8
1407bd6152d9fdbc239250385159fea1

on August 04, 2012
at 10:50 PM

He's claiming that all people following a paleo diet are failing in the very act of being a modern human, effectively creating a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation in which he's always right. Sheesh, what a load of crap, this isn't historical revisionism here.

7
B4e1fa6a8cf43d2b69d97a99dfca262c

(10255)

on August 05, 2012
at 03:39 AM

he confuses ketoacidosis with ketosis. good job.

7
A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on August 05, 2012
at 12:10 AM

This is my response to paragraph #1 of the question, about PhIP:

Heterocyclic amines are an interesting issue. However, he is speculating on them well beyond what the evidence shows here. Yes, some preliminary evidence shows PhIP may have some estrogenic properties, including this one, in which PhIP activated estrogen receptor alpha (in vitro). But it would take a huge leap to say this is evidence that PhIP in cooked meat "feminizes" men. I don't even know of a single animal study where any dose of PhIP feminized males. Furthermore, even if PhIP proves to be problematic the amount of it found in meat depends on a number of factors, including cooking method. This study for example, measured the effects of cooking on HCA formation in beef and found that PhiP "was formed only in very well done fried or grilled hamburger".

The evidence supporting his claim, like my interest in ever reading anything by this guy again, just isn't there.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 05, 2012
at 12:21 AM

only way to know for sure is a clinical trial

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 05, 2012
at 05:12 AM

Yeah exactly, that's the point. Dose makes the poison and just because you can make a hyperbolic claim like ZOMG CARCINOGEN ESTROGENIC doesn't mean that it's very relevant.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 05, 2012
at 05:05 AM

^ Vegetable and fruit do contain carcinogens. They are commonly referred to as "anti-oxidants" aka polyphenols, and in large doses those chemicals do cause cancers. When it comes to toxicity, dose is everything.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on August 05, 2012
at 07:58 PM

Stabby, much like the raccoons that live near my apartment complex, I don't see you around here as much so I'm excited when you pop up.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 05, 2012
at 03:58 AM

Yeah the HCAs from lighter cooking techniques are rather negligible and are neutralized by various antioxidant types in the same meal like EGCG from green tea. Or even endogenous defenses like glutathione if they're high. HCAs can be a non-issue if you make them one. Although i do think that there is a danger to overcooking meat which many paleos could heed. But his ideas are junk science, what you suggest would be using the scientific method in an intelligent manner. It's an epidemic! Hey let's not eat vegetables because they have carcinogens. Brilliant, lol.

3
A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on August 06, 2012
at 12:54 AM

Who the hell is Josh Vales, and why should anyone care about his opinion?

3
26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

on August 04, 2012
at 10:53 PM

Maybe all the grass-fed beef is why my ass is so bangin' (feminized, if you will).

He sounds like a big dummy to me, from these quotes. Puddles indeed.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on August 06, 2012
at 12:04 AM

Pics or it isn't happenin'. :D

D7cc4049bef85d1979efbd853dc07c8e

(4029)

on August 05, 2012
at 09:01 PM

Exactly, I KNEW this was asked about months ago.

1
927f8cb9fe45aa9f8fa9f37067bce309

on September 07, 2013
at 12:44 AM

i love when people quote blog sites and not real medical publications. it really lends credibility.. what a moron. paleolithic is what man was made on, not farming. trix are for kids.

0
E2db1519690001648433e8109eb2c013

on August 05, 2012
at 11:29 PM

PS: Flouride is a naturally occuring mineral in many water supplies. That's how its effect on tooth decay was discovered.

0
72cd359efb959175e2c7786ea0450879

on August 04, 2012
at 10:46 PM

Of course his defense would be that since I posted this on a pro-paleo board, the response will be pro-paleo biased. Worse than arguing about religion!

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