7

votes

Is Paleo Making us Worse?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created June 24, 2012 at 8:32 PM

This is a follow-up for this question. It's pretty clear that paleo is not a band-aid for most of us. In my case, I ended up with a dairy and orange juice intolerance. A couple of months before paleo I was able to eat those with no issues, after paleo I got sinus and digestion problems from them. What if this diet was making some of us worse?

Edit : This isn't about me, this is about what I experienced. I tolerate orange juice and milk fine right now, they are staples in my diet. I don't need any advice on what I should eat instead, but rather am interested to see if other people also got worse with paleo. It is possible, people.

Medium avatar

on September 09, 2013
at 07:07 PM

I agree with you, Paleo is not a band-aid for most of us. Some of my friends have the same issues. Before they were good, but after having paleo diet recipes, they have started getting lots of problem which makes me crazy

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on June 26, 2012
at 08:06 AM

starches are not really great for MANY people, tell your friend to stop. go back to what was working for her minus the tofu & grains.

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on June 26, 2012
at 08:05 AM

ever seen traditional people eat fruit? suck the juice out and spit out all that wonderfully healthy and glorious fiber? they must not know something and need us to teach them!

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on June 26, 2012
at 07:59 AM

no way man paleo is the diet of the one true god in heaven that created man in his image and a snake told eve to eat a pancake and she DIED

E68bdbd83e45fd5be130e393ace9c9a9

(2063)

on June 25, 2012
at 06:38 PM

Thanks for sharing, tummyrumbler... I hope your friend feels better soon. I have had one health condition get progressively worse after 3 months of very strict autoimmune paleo (doing much better in some other respects). Of course it's possible that my rosacea would have gotten worse even if I hadn't changed my diet, but its exacerbation just matched my diet changes too neatly for me to think it's a coincidence. Not giving up, just frustrated that people assume I'm doing it wrong or imagining things.

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on June 25, 2012
at 06:36 PM

thhq, I said ".. you can get a test if you want." The "natural follow-on" as you call it, is obvious. These are intelligent adults and I don't feel a need to state the obvious in my answer. If you do, fine. People here know how to use advice found on a forum such as this. I personally am not going to spell out every single thing that is obvious or unspoken. If you find that necessary in your Answers, or that's your style - Great. I hope you don't get petty remarks or downvotes for semantics. Modern lawyers? I'm unclear what that has to do with it.

E68bdbd83e45fd5be130e393ace9c9a9

(2063)

on June 25, 2012
at 06:34 PM

It's also pretty easy to say "you only THINK you're getting worse because you didn't realize how crappy you felt all the time before!"

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on June 25, 2012
at 06:34 PM

thhq, I said ".. you can get a test if you want." The "natural follow-on" as you call it, is obvious. These are intelligent adults and I don't feel a need to state the obvious in my answer. If you do, fine. People here know how to use advice found on a forum such as this. I personally am not going to spell out every single thing that is obvious or unspoken. If you find that necessary in your Answers, or that's your style - Great. I hope you do get petty remarks and downvotes for semantics. Modern lawyers?

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on June 25, 2012
at 04:26 PM

@Bruno, is the raw carrot and aspirin business via Ray Peat? I'm curious because I've never really read his stuff, but came across Danny Roddy's ideas about "adrenal fatigue" and wanted to learn more.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on June 25, 2012
at 03:58 PM

"I suspect you have a leaky gut" sounds like a diagnosis to me. But I don't see the natural follow-on: see your doctor and get the diagnostics done to see whether this is true. I know some paleo true-believers like shamans but we're living in modern times, with modern lawyers and medical treatments.

68294383ced9a0eafc16133aa80d1905

(5795)

on June 25, 2012
at 02:56 PM

This also has to be taken in context of "how is it making her worse?" Just feeling worse? She cut out soy and grains. Those are major irritants. While it seems she certainly has some unresolved digestive issues, the benefits of cutting out those foods (and dairy/caffeine can't hurt either) may just be unrecognizable. I don't think anyone in this thread is wrong, just open for interpretation. When we start throwing around terms like "making us worse" or "feeling bad" it leaves a lot of room for inaccuracy and assumption as those can be defined different in each case.

Cd717290eb43a6e17061f9920deed977

(1267)

on June 25, 2012
at 02:43 PM

I upvoted this because, er, it's true! Once I got to a non-inflamed baseline, then I was able to really see which foods were a clear problem for me. (My list of problem foods is slightly different than yours, of course, but do include the main Paleo culprits: gluten and casein.) Once my body was completely calmed down I started to reintroduce, and the reaction that I got from my body was very, very clear, and fairly violent. I'm OK with that, because I would rather it be clear, than have my body appear to "tolerate" those foods, while probably having my health slowly being eroded by them.

B4b56fcc5ebad76ed8e1709dedf01f86

(660)

on June 25, 2012
at 02:33 PM

I will ask! Thank you.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 02:24 PM

Thanks for sharing tummyrumblr. Has she tried baking soda yet? Seems to be a quick fix for some people, and there's really no harm in trying.

276a5e631b62f8e0793987c0496364bb

(1644)

on June 25, 2012
at 02:24 PM

Also: http://paleohacks.com/questions/102363/has-paleo-ruined-you

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 02:21 PM

Oh okay that's true, kinda why I'm asking this question, as elimination seems to be very very common advice on here.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on June 25, 2012
at 01:31 PM

@Bruno, I don't think Karen is talking about you at all. She is talking about newbs doing the faileo diet (Cordain), which does produce a lot of confusion. Especially when they come here and say "Why are you all eating butter and potatoes? That's not paleo." You experience is perfectly valid and I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people have similar experiences. I think Dr. Harris (and others) are correct in that food intolerances come down to gut flora/gut biome. Perhaps not eating something leads to a die-off of the necessary biota for that food?

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on June 25, 2012
at 01:23 PM

Yep. My first reaction to the question is: What do mean by "paleo". Cordain? Whole 30? Wolf? Sisson? Harris? The only thing I do is avoid (or try really hard to avoid) the things that I know are toxic to me. And eat stuff I know is good for me. And I am still trying to figure that out, although I do have a few ideas. Stuff I avoid: Refined flour & sugar, HFCS, trans-fats, wheat, vegetable oil, excess n6, excess carbs (I'm diabetic), processed food. I do eat some sweet potato/rice/dark chocolate/coffee/nuts/fruit in addition to a lot of meat and veggies. And BBQ Fritos now and then - oops!

0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on June 25, 2012
at 01:22 PM

I'm just going to end here: you seem to want a fight. You seem to have a counter argument prepared for any advice anyone here is able to offer you.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on June 25, 2012
at 12:57 PM

Some newer PHers take issue with my recommendations now, as I come off very lax on paleo verboten foods. I've just progressed through paleo at a quick pace, and can see why folks simply move on.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 12:57 PM

Amerindian - I thought they became less strict because it is not necessary. Richard at free the animal never cut out beer, right? The big question is if recovery is due to elimination, or because of higher nutrient-density (more fat-solubles) and other things that have been added to the diet. For example, elimination just made everything worse for me, but adding aspirin solved 2 intolerances.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on June 25, 2012
at 12:54 PM

For myself, I started eating paleo because I thought it to be a very healthy diet and I still hold that opinion. I just think that, for most folks, it goes about 3 steps too far. I've reintroduced corn and rice, and occasional wheat. I still minimize foodstuffs that are on the paleo blacklist, but only because there's so much out there better.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 12:54 PM

Karen - I don't know why you're being so hateful, and I sure hope you're not talking about me. I've tried very strict paleo for months and months, it just made it worse, and decreased my tolerance for food. Maybe you're lucky and you had success, it doesn't make you experienced nor does that mean that people who are still looking are whining. Very closed-minded of you. What makes nuts or veggies so much more paleo than orange juice anyways? I'm sure if Grok found an orange tree he would throw away the broccoli in his backpack.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on June 25, 2012
at 12:51 PM

I think there are two types of people who benefit from paleo: those that just need a little healing and normalization & those who need a diet for life because they're too far gone.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 12:01 PM

I've noticed eating very high protein (> 120g) without adequate sugar is really, really not for me. Especially eggs, coffee and chocolate can really turn me hypoglycemic @Mike I tried aspirin based on Danny Roddy's work. As it worked for me I got very interested in the other things Ray Peat had to offer. He says poly-unsaturated fats increase aromatase, aspirin decreases it : http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/aspirin-brain-cancer.shtml

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:57 AM

Karen very kind answer. The gut flora is an important part of this whole thing, as a daily raw carrot improved my digestion a lot, and this study : http://www.ajcn.org/content/32/9/1889.abstract did show that it induces a change in gut flora.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:54 AM

*"but it honestly sounds like you're not putting forth the effort necessary to give all of this a chance"* WHOAH THERE BABEH I worked my ass off.

34b560c8b9ce660d7839fb7e29d7be89

on June 25, 2012
at 11:49 AM

Not me Bruno, I don't see many increasing their sensitivities after an initial adjustment stage, which may last 6mo or a year+. If you read between the lines a lot of paleo bloggers have even eased up on some of the basic paleo tenents. I think it is because after a period of elimination and healing, some can experience a level of recovery that allows for the slow re-introduction of foods that would have elicited a negative response previously. A lot of the people in that category are no longer as active in paleo circles because they are no longer strictly paleo.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:49 AM

Oh and on a sidenote during summer I was doing quite well with paleo, but during the winter it got really bad without changing my diet. Then I experienced a lot but whatever I did (fatty fish, safe starches, supplementation, different carbohydrate levels), it didn't work.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:47 AM

Like Korion said I don't have problems with OJ and dairy anymore, thanks.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:46 AM

No I don't think so Meeps, it's ridiculous to applaud an intolerance. A new intolerance just can't be good, especially as everyone around me tolerates everything and they're healthier than me.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:45 AM

I do not have problems with OJ or milk anymore, actually solved tons of my problems with it (sleep, libido, hair loss, inability to gain muscle, ...). I listened to myself for 6 months, for fucks sake, eliminated everything that was harming me, it never helped. *"go back to the way you were"* So back to the SAD you mean, and give up? I tried starches, thanks. Screwed up my digestion. What makes you think I need any advice now for libido or anything else? I'm feeling pretty good now, thanks.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:41 AM

I would agree, Karen, if we were all Neanderthalers. Orange juice has been used for centuries, I don't think many people didn't tolerate it. And as I said above, I used to tolerate it fine. Just because modern world has changed things doesn't mean those changes are bad. There's still little evidence that suggests sugar itself is really bad.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:39 AM

I like your take on it, Matt.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:06 AM

Karen, if you had read what I said above, I tolerate these now. Milk has restored my libido, orange juice makes me crazy energetic and very happy inside. So I'll pass on your advice.

34b560c8b9ce660d7839fb7e29d7be89

on June 25, 2012
at 10:58 AM

For a lot of them the mantra, "search function is your friend" would do wonders. But the upvote system is subject to all the frailties of human nature. We've all seen snarky answers that were submitted early on recieve lots of upvotes while an answer that actually addresses the question fully recieve no love as it was not clever or submitted while the question was still hot. Does the former poster deserve a higher "reputation" and thus more value attributed to their posts relative to the latter poster?

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on June 25, 2012
at 10:39 AM

@Amerindian Yes. There many new people posting now that have no backing at all in what paleo is, that are making it up for themselves without listening to experienced people, that whine and b***h about the deprivations. It's frustrating to watch, and the huge percentage of new members has thrown off the opportunities for them to even get the basic learning in that they need to thrive. I'm sure we're looking at dozens of new versions of how to do a faileo diet. What to do is the question. Maybe Patrik needs to adjust the points system. I don't know. This needs to be fixed though.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on June 25, 2012
at 10:30 AM

A world where most people just ate the orange with all the accompany fiber and pulp. A world where people did not eat excessive amounts of sugar, including the sudden influx of massive amounts of sugar in liquid form whether sodas or orange juice. You know, a paleolithic era world.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on June 25, 2012
at 10:21 AM

Wild and crazy idea: Don't eat the OJ and dairy.

34b560c8b9ce660d7839fb7e29d7be89

on June 25, 2012
at 10:03 AM

I agree in part but I think if you look at PH's most active users as of late, if you've been registered or lurking for a while, you'll see that a lot of formerly very active posters have for the most part moved on. I think many of them have experienced some degree of healing and are expanding the narrow framework of paleo, some to a more WAPF approach or whatever. For the most part when I log on now I see newbs posting/arguing like they've read one paleo book/blog and are obsessed with carbs or dairy or "evil gluten" or *neolithic* this or that.

6b1e308ead300a922b7cc1ba8ad01dc1

(250)

on June 25, 2012
at 06:53 AM

BTW - sensitivities do change with time, and often you can tolerate small amounts eventually (unless it is a full-blown allergy.) Half an egg in a salad was fine, 3 eggs for breakfast a no-go. It pays to try occasionally - at the least for foods that are basically paleo, and that you miss. I eat pretty clean, but I know that when eating out or ordering food, I can never be compliant - I know that every chef adds sugar to the dish, every sauce has hidden soy, gluten, and sugar, and who knows what's in the meat? It's about balance, I guess.

0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on June 25, 2012
at 05:46 AM

And in reply to OJ/energy: have you taken the time to attempt to let your metabolism become fat-adapted? Are you eating enough fat; MCTs? Are you eating healthy sources of glucose for energy? Needing fructose for energy sounds like nothing more than an unsustainable crutch for a carb-dependent metabolism. I apologize for the overall "tough-love" tone of all of this, but it honestly sounds like you're not putting forth the effort necessary to give all of this a chance.

0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on June 25, 2012
at 05:40 AM

Also - try starches for your libido. Mine was absolutely gone on VLC, but returned in full force with the addition of potatoes, sweet potatoes, and squash. The other thought I have there (given that milk helps) is that it may be cholestrol based? Are you getting enough animal fat?

0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on June 25, 2012
at 05:40 AM

If you don't like these new-found problematic foods (or the presence of healthy bio-feedback as a whole) - as I said, go back to the way you were. You're going to go through phases where you can't tolerate things due to shifts in gut flora, due to healing processes going on within your body - and you're also going to shift in such a way that you may no longer tolerate certain things permanently. If you're that attached to any one food/food group, you may be going down the wrong rabbit hole.

0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on June 25, 2012
at 05:39 AM

I KNOW that dairy makes me inflamed; I KNOW that OJ gives me a wicked insulin rush followed by a severe crash. If you want to continue eating detrimental foods and not listening to your body - go for it. But don't whine to us about the fact. Your body's response IS the evidence. Forget pubmed and the science, LISTEN TO YOURSELF for once. You're here telling us "poor me because these things make me feel like crap" - guess what? DON'T EAT THEM! That is what the journey of a real diet is: elimination - it's about learning how your body responds to - every - single - thing - you put into it.

C79a5b43dfc5749200bd9dcaa6bb0858

on June 25, 2012
at 05:30 AM

Yeah, I think KA24 was a bit inflammatory at first, but if you can get past that he makes a very valid point. Many of our bodies (mine!) where so f'ed up that it was impossible to pinpoint the problem foods till we started eating uber clean. What KA24 doesn't mention is that there is also the probability that healing needs to happen. I was able to heal myself after about a year (plus a month long elimination diet) of paleo with some GAPS protocol and my sensitivity to random ass stuff is 95% gone. Yay!

6ba6dc54fccbb9e01a07595137cecfa2

(92)

on June 25, 2012
at 05:27 AM

Yes my bad meant resistance on that one.Anything can be taking as medical advice.But only fools do not research the advice given.Especially advice from a drug dealer/doctor.

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on June 25, 2012
at 05:24 AM

That was a fake ad from some magazin in the 90s if I remember correctly. But lard is one of the better fats nevertheless.

0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on June 25, 2012
at 05:07 AM

Have you tried starch for your libido? Mine was terrible on VLC, but returned in full force with the addition of potatoes and squashes. And for that matter, have you tried some sort of glucose based energy source (not to mention MCTs; we are still operating in fat-is-acceptable paradigm here, right?) for energy? OJ seems like a cheap, unsustainable, fix for a carb-dependent metabolism. It's your choice if you don't want to develop metabolic flexibility, but don't blame us because you need pure sugar on an hourly schedule just to function... that's called metabolic syndrome.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 04:54 AM

Paleo made me more confident and made me a tad leaner. *"Neither dairy nor orange juice are necessary, nor particularly healthy, foods"* I disagree. Without the milk I would probably still have libido-problems, without the orange juice I would still be tired all day. The simple assumption that veggies or anything 'paleo' is better than orange juice and milk is what drives me a bit nuts here. There is really, really no evidence of that.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 04:50 AM

But in what world should orange juice not be tolerated? It's fresh squeezed, but it does taste the same to me all the time :).

F9638b939a6f85d67f60065677193cad

(4266)

on June 25, 2012
at 04:12 AM

Yeah, I think it's about the gut flora. I didn't have many sensitivities before and I still don't have many now after adopting a paleo diet. However, I have some negative generalized symptoms since the diet change that indicate my gut flora may not be in the best shape.

7fc82eebafd44badc73c520f44660150

(3275)

on June 25, 2012
at 02:24 AM

I agree. I really appreciated this question being asked. I've listened to every one of Robb's podcasts, and he has said on numerous times that active duty soldiers might need to keep some degree of gluten in their rotation so they don't get sudden GI distress if deployed and fed gluten. That did scare me.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 25, 2012
at 02:10 AM

Really Mscott? I thought lard was the food of the gods? Haven't you seen the WAPF advertisements saying "these people are happy because they eat lard" ?

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on June 25, 2012
at 01:49 AM

Who cares if it's the advice required?

892d177f50b16f118152219229870e4e

(776)

on June 25, 2012
at 01:21 AM

When I was dairy and starch free I ended up losing the ability to digest either when I tried reintroducing them into my diet. It took a bit of time and I had to start off with small portions but I was able to fix that.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on June 25, 2012
at 12:14 AM

I see paleo diet as general health guideline, not a scientific plan that leads us to nirvana. If you must exclude foods to be paleo, don't be surprised if some reversible adaptations are lost. The one's I've seen the most on Paleohacks are lactose and the harder-to-digest proteins casein and gluten.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on June 25, 2012
at 12:06 AM

-1 for giving medical advice and plugging tests and supplements.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on June 24, 2012
at 11:20 PM

Yeah, I'm not surprised a diet of 72% corn oil and lard increased intestinal permeability.

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on June 24, 2012
at 11:06 PM

Pure sugar, OJ, raw carrot, aspirin: much more of a band aid than a proper paleo diet.

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on June 24, 2012
at 11:05 PM

Jeff, you mean insulin resistance? That aside, I agree.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 24, 2012
at 10:56 PM

@ mike. Asprin is NSAID and a blood thinner- just like fish oil. The benefit of aspirin of fish oil is that you don't have to deal with omega 3 rancidity and excess PUFA.

5e63e3fa78e998736106a4a5b9aef58c

on June 24, 2012
at 10:30 PM

I've had a very similar experience since quitting grains. The one food I've developed a new sensitivity to? Peanuts. No, they're not paleo, but I sure did love my occasional peanut butter treat. If I eat peanut/peanut products now, I get excruciatingly painful ulcers on and inside my nose--it feels like each nerve ending is on fire. So yeah, goodbye to peanuts. However much I might still miss them, they aren't worth the pain.

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on June 24, 2012
at 10:25 PM

maybe it helps inflammation?

6ba6dc54fccbb9e01a07595137cecfa2

(92)

on June 24, 2012
at 10:03 PM

If someone is allergic to a foodstuff and they build up there immune system.The response to that allergen will increase. Sensitivity is the bodies way of trying to communicate a problem.So the insane statement is spot on. Orange juice is biologically worthless unless insulin sensitivity is what you seek. Dairy is not needed as well.Dumb down sensitivity and tolerance of drugs becomes a way a life. Aspirin is not the answer to health and well being.Insane oh ya and many choose it as a way of life.

7fc82eebafd44badc73c520f44660150

(3275)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:54 PM

Bruno: what's up with this aspirin cure. Do tell.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:54 PM

I've tried GAPS, SCD, FODMAPS. Didn't do anything really. Some supplements, especially vitamin D, k2 and A help a lot. So far the best diet I've been on is a Peatarian one. I don't really have digestion problems now, it's mostly circulation problems that started after zero-carbing.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:54 PM

Bruno, if you're a Peatarian, I'd recommend laying off the coconut oil in your carrot salad. WHIle many people praise it for being "antimicrobial," I think that's a bad thing. Coconut oil is used in soap, and it acts as soap in your intestines.

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:48 PM

Bruno please look into Leaky gut and treating it. Lots of folks say they have done it with diets like GAPS and SCD and FODMAPS and thats great. I used more of a Primal diet and supplements.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:48 PM

^ That's not the study that the person here linked to, but it's one I just found after searching online for 30 seconds.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:45 PM

http://gut.bmj.com/content/early/2011/11/22/gutjnl-2011-301012.full.pdf

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:43 PM

Yes, Crowlover, I do have some digestion issues, and certainly circulation issues. On a sidenote - I tolerate OJ now, by eating sugar, aspirin, and a daily raw carrot. And I gotta say it's probably my favorite food of all, get extremely energetic from it.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:41 PM

It's pretty interesting that a high (pure) sugar intake and a raw daily carrot solved my dairy and OJ intolerance 90%, aspirin solved the last 10%.

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:38 PM

Wow really? Please do find that study! Makes no sense to me and if they study didn't do GI Permeability testing then..... I would love to read this. Thanks foreveryoung.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:36 PM

Yes for that last one, I'm not gonna eat gluten even if you pay me :). It's just a shame to tolerate less if you live in this modern world. For once I'd like to be able to go out and really have a beer fest again, but I'm not willing to pay the price anymore. On a sidenote I do tolerate dairy and orange juice now thanks to aspirin.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:34 PM

someone posted a link to study on here a week or so ago indicating that high fat diets may increase gut permeability, but I'm having a hard time finding it now. if that's true, then perhaps eating a higher fat diet that you were used to before damaged and altered your gut microflora? low carb eating may be detrimental to one's gut flora as well.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:34 PM

I think KA24 reacted normally, after all I'm questioning his/her diet and I personally get offended when people question how I eat :).

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:31 PM

Why so much hostility people? This forum is supposed to be for helping each other isn't it? Some people are a lot more knowledgeable than others and you don't know who you are talking to so be nice please, even if you disagree. When you tell someone their idea is insane they won't listen to anymore that you have to say and that's a shame....

68294383ced9a0eafc16133aa80d1905

(5795)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:15 PM

Maybe it was a bit harsh. I do think it's an appropriate response if the context is that of someone going from not caring about diet to Paleo. It's hard to say in any circumstance that doing that could make you worse. That's where my response was coming from.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 24, 2012
at 08:57 PM

I think it's just a question that is likely to offend others, especially those that have improved themselves a lot with paleo. It'd be great if you guys could be open to other stories, because not everybody improves on paleo.

46c9fbd45b82453f6a2dfe614a853314

(1876)

on June 24, 2012
at 08:52 PM

KA24, don't you think it is pretty rude to answer someone's question by stating it is insane? I doubt they would have asked it if they felt it was insane. Remember, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 24, 2012
at 08:52 PM

*"This is insane"* Exactly what a raw vegan would say if they see someone else fail. *"it was very difficult to detect intolerance"* I think that is bullshit, since I didn't have digestion problems with orange juice in the past, so I don't see how I could be "so wrecked up" that I didn't have digestion problems with orange juice. Suddenly tolerating less food is somehow better?

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11 Answers

15
6b1e308ead300a922b7cc1ba8ad01dc1

on June 24, 2012
at 09:25 PM

In a way you are right, and I think it is a matter of choice.

I know I didn't notice food sensitivities before, if you exclude me being morbidly obese, obsessed with food, constantly overeating, and having chronic pain in my joints - triggered by an accident two years ago, and so bad lately that I was on crutches some days again.

Completely went clean with 5 weeks of HCG, followed by paleo. After two (!) weeks, I was pain-free, for the first time in 2 years. It became clear that inflammation immediately went down, and I am leptin-sensitive again... no cravings, not even thinking about food. Haven't had a bout of depression since starting, either.

In return, I now get massive cramps when I eat eggs - I can handle small amounts, but a breakfast omelette is out. Can handle dairy, but straight yogurt seems to be too much. Macadamia the same.

Of course I was sensitive before... only the symptoms were completely shrouded in all those little pains and aches that I considered "normal" at my weight.

Honestly, would I rather eat eggs or be pain-free? No contest.

7fc82eebafd44badc73c520f44660150

(3275)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:54 PM

Bruno: what's up with this aspirin cure. Do tell.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:36 PM

Yes for that last one, I'm not gonna eat gluten even if you pay me :). It's just a shame to tolerate less if you live in this modern world. For once I'd like to be able to go out and really have a beer fest again, but I'm not willing to pay the price anymore. On a sidenote I do tolerate dairy and orange juice now thanks to aspirin.

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on June 24, 2012
at 10:25 PM

maybe it helps inflammation?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 24, 2012
at 10:56 PM

@ mike. Asprin is NSAID and a blood thinner- just like fish oil. The benefit of aspirin of fish oil is that you don't have to deal with omega 3 rancidity and excess PUFA.

5e63e3fa78e998736106a4a5b9aef58c

on June 24, 2012
at 10:30 PM

I've had a very similar experience since quitting grains. The one food I've developed a new sensitivity to? Peanuts. No, they're not paleo, but I sure did love my occasional peanut butter treat. If I eat peanut/peanut products now, I get excruciatingly painful ulcers on and inside my nose--it feels like each nerve ending is on fire. So yeah, goodbye to peanuts. However much I might still miss them, they aren't worth the pain.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 12:01 PM

I've noticed eating very high protein (> 120g) without adequate sugar is really, really not for me. Especially eggs, coffee and chocolate can really turn me hypoglycemic @Mike I tried aspirin based on Danny Roddy's work. As it worked for me I got very interested in the other things Ray Peat had to offer. He says poly-unsaturated fats increase aromatase, aspirin decreases it : http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/aspirin-brain-cancer.shtml

6b1e308ead300a922b7cc1ba8ad01dc1

(250)

on June 25, 2012
at 06:53 AM

BTW - sensitivities do change with time, and often you can tolerate small amounts eventually (unless it is a full-blown allergy.) Half an egg in a salad was fine, 3 eggs for breakfast a no-go. It pays to try occasionally - at the least for foods that are basically paleo, and that you miss. I eat pretty clean, but I know that when eating out or ordering food, I can never be compliant - I know that every chef adds sugar to the dish, every sauce has hidden soy, gluten, and sugar, and who knows what's in the meat? It's about balance, I guess.

14
68294383ced9a0eafc16133aa80d1905

(5795)

on June 24, 2012
at 08:41 PM

This is insane. A Paleo Diet is not making people worse. Now, lets say you were so metabolically wrecked, chronically inflamed and had such poor digestion that before Paleo or after starting Paleo, dairy didn't cause "problems." For many, it's not that those weren't problem foods, they just were mixed in amongst many other problem (even more problematic) foods it was very difficult to detect intolerance. That, in a nutshell, is an abstract summary of what leaky gut and chronic inflammation is all about.

Get that stuff to subside with the removal of grains, beans, and other non-Paleo foods, but continue to consume dairy products, nightshades, eggs, fruit, etc...and it's not necessarily that those things develop into problems, they just become magnified. That's why "Paleo" is such a slippery slope depending on how you define it. Someone's Paleo Diet might include eggs. Someone else might be ruined by a Paleo Diet with eggs. That doesn't make the actual concept of Paleo inapplicable to the latter, it just means they need to constantly be defining it.

If something is making you "worse", change it or eliminate it. If you can identify it as being worse, that's 90% of the battle. If each person is constantly in-tune with their body, what works for them based on how they are living, the problem is solved. Paleo is just a baseline template or starting place for those coming from a complete train wreck scene.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 24, 2012
at 08:52 PM

*"This is insane"* Exactly what a raw vegan would say if they see someone else fail. *"it was very difficult to detect intolerance"* I think that is bullshit, since I didn't have digestion problems with orange juice in the past, so I don't see how I could be "so wrecked up" that I didn't have digestion problems with orange juice. Suddenly tolerating less food is somehow better?

68294383ced9a0eafc16133aa80d1905

(5795)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:15 PM

Maybe it was a bit harsh. I do think it's an appropriate response if the context is that of someone going from not caring about diet to Paleo. It's hard to say in any circumstance that doing that could make you worse. That's where my response was coming from.

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:31 PM

Why so much hostility people? This forum is supposed to be for helping each other isn't it? Some people are a lot more knowledgeable than others and you don't know who you are talking to so be nice please, even if you disagree. When you tell someone their idea is insane they won't listen to anymore that you have to say and that's a shame....

46c9fbd45b82453f6a2dfe614a853314

(1876)

on June 24, 2012
at 08:52 PM

KA24, don't you think it is pretty rude to answer someone's question by stating it is insane? I doubt they would have asked it if they felt it was insane. Remember, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:34 PM

I think KA24 reacted normally, after all I'm questioning his/her diet and I personally get offended when people question how I eat :).

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 24, 2012
at 08:57 PM

I think it's just a question that is likely to offend others, especially those that have improved themselves a lot with paleo. It'd be great if you guys could be open to other stories, because not everybody improves on paleo.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:46 AM

No I don't think so Meeps, it's ridiculous to applaud an intolerance. A new intolerance just can't be good, especially as everyone around me tolerates everything and they're healthier than me.

C79a5b43dfc5749200bd9dcaa6bb0858

on June 25, 2012
at 05:30 AM

Yeah, I think KA24 was a bit inflammatory at first, but if you can get past that he makes a very valid point. Many of our bodies (mine!) where so f'ed up that it was impossible to pinpoint the problem foods till we started eating uber clean. What KA24 doesn't mention is that there is also the probability that healing needs to happen. I was able to heal myself after about a year (plus a month long elimination diet) of paleo with some GAPS protocol and my sensitivity to random ass stuff is 95% gone. Yay!

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on June 26, 2012
at 07:59 AM

no way man paleo is the diet of the one true god in heaven that created man in his image and a snake told eve to eat a pancake and she DIED

7
22424c9eef944ade83d4e4ffda907056

(1402)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:04 PM

It's not necessarily better or worse, it may simply be different. Just because you react to something now and you didn't before does not mean that you are worse off. Maybe it was having harmful effects before but creating no conscious reaction. I think you may be drawing conclusions where there's not enough information to reliably do so.

For me, it seems like I react more easily to things. But then I think about it a little more and remember that the shitty feeling I get now wasn't absent before, but it was just so much more prevalent that it didn't stand out as much.

My opinion on your question is that if you think that being on a paleo diet is going to be all good for you in every aspect of your life, you're wrong. It's a dietary choice that will have effects, good and bad. The aim is to focus on the effects that matter the most to you. Some people just care about food tasting good or being cheap or being convenient. For them, eating shit works because it fits into what matters to them. Nothing that changes in your life is ever completely good or completely bad. It may take time for the negatives to surface, but there is always at least some good and some bad. So maybe you need more realistic expectations. Or maybe you just need to figure out what matters most and see how to fix that. Nobody ever went through life with perfect health, energy, poops, sleep, skin, etc. the entire time.

6
F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on June 25, 2012
at 02:10 AM

What I'm not seeing here is a very real discussion about how our gut flora shifts in response to what we eat.

I seem to remember Robb Wolf recommending to a soldier deploying overseas to gently reintroduce certain foods to regain some tolerance to them. With that logic, then yes, it appears that Paleo can make some foods more problematic than before.

For my part, I am suddenly developing sensitivity to caffeine and now, as in this week, trouble with getting to sleep after dark chocolate. This is not a welcome development.

I've also noticed mega phlegm after dairy. I'm hoping this is in conjunction with some seasonal allergies and that I can occasionally have a bit here and there in the future without drowning in my own mucus. But who knows.

I'm not sure why everyone jumped all over this question. I think we should all be cautious about our sacred tasty cows.

F9638b939a6f85d67f60065677193cad

(4266)

on June 25, 2012
at 04:12 AM

Yeah, I think it's about the gut flora. I didn't have many sensitivities before and I still don't have many now after adopting a paleo diet. However, I have some negative generalized symptoms since the diet change that indicate my gut flora may not be in the best shape.

7fc82eebafd44badc73c520f44660150

(3275)

on June 25, 2012
at 02:24 AM

I agree. I really appreciated this question being asked. I've listened to every one of Robb's podcasts, and he has said on numerous times that active duty soldiers might need to keep some degree of gluten in their rotation so they don't get sudden GI distress if deployed and fed gluten. That did scare me.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:57 AM

Karen very kind answer. The gut flora is an important part of this whole thing, as a daily raw carrot improved my digestion a lot, and this study : http://www.ajcn.org/content/32/9/1889.abstract did show that it induces a change in gut flora.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on June 25, 2012
at 04:26 PM

@Bruno, is the raw carrot and aspirin business via Ray Peat? I'm curious because I've never really read his stuff, but came across Danny Roddy's ideas about "adrenal fatigue" and wanted to learn more.

5
1d0497f8781845ab371b479455bfee8e

(11157)

on June 24, 2012
at 11:09 PM

Maybe it's not so much an intolerance, as it is a recognized sensitivity to which you'd previously been unaware of. When all you eat on SAD is inflammatory foods, what's a little extra added to the mix? IMO, Paleo brings you to your baseline, and when you add certain foods to it, they can trigger reactions that seem out of the ordinary. I used to get post-nasal drip and was constantly clearing my throat. I didn't know what was causing it. Until I started eating Paleo and it went away on its own. All I can deduce is that the low-level inflammation caused by my diet was causing the irritation.

Things I've learned about myself after going Paleo (which I didn't realize before):

  • I notice a marked reaction to sugary stuff like fruits and fruit drinks. If I eat bananas for a couple of days, I start breaking out in canker sores and acne. I'm not allergic or intolerant to fruit, I just notice a definite uptick in inflammation.

  • Starches such as potatoes and white rice aid my digestion and help maintain my weight. Both non-Paleo foods.

  • Eating nuts of any kind makes it painful to pass a BM. To hell with what they say about nuts and insoluble fiber, it hurts! So now nuts, once a happy snack food, are avoided. Again, not intolerant, but I notice a drastic change in my baseline digestive health :(

  • I seem to do okay with some dairy. Too much of it and I get constipated. I stick with butter for cooking and adding to tubers and squashes.

Cd717290eb43a6e17061f9920deed977

(1267)

on June 25, 2012
at 02:43 PM

I upvoted this because, er, it's true! Once I got to a non-inflamed baseline, then I was able to really see which foods were a clear problem for me. (My list of problem foods is slightly different than yours, of course, but do include the main Paleo culprits: gluten and casein.) Once my body was completely calmed down I started to reintroduce, and the reaction that I got from my body was very, very clear, and fairly violent. I'm OK with that, because I would rather it be clear, than have my body appear to "tolerate" those foods, while probably having my health slowly being eroded by them.

4
F31d10b54b31428e189d9b771bf7b1d1

on June 24, 2012
at 11:54 PM

If by paleo you mean matching our diets to your genetic structure with a careful eye towards the damage that the standard American diet has done to us, then I have to say that I cannot believe that paleo is making us worse.

If by paleo you mean blinding following what someone else has said paleo is, then it is very likely that the paleo stereotype has been bad for you and may be bad for other people.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on June 25, 2012
at 01:23 PM

Yep. My first reaction to the question is: What do mean by "paleo". Cordain? Whole 30? Wolf? Sisson? Harris? The only thing I do is avoid (or try really hard to avoid) the things that I know are toxic to me. And eat stuff I know is good for me. And I am still trying to figure that out, although I do have a few ideas. Stuff I avoid: Refined flour & sugar, HFCS, trans-fats, wheat, vegetable oil, excess n6, excess carbs (I'm diabetic), processed food. I do eat some sweet potato/rice/dark chocolate/coffee/nuts/fruit in addition to a lot of meat and veggies. And BBQ Fritos now and then - oops!

4
4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

on June 24, 2012
at 09:37 PM

Bruno please consider that you may still, have a less than optimal GI tract. I suspect you have leaky gut. You can get tested for it and then treat it, or just treat it.

What worked for me in addition to a very clean diet was PermaVite by Allergy Research Group. Along with a hefty dose of probiotics (and I do mean hefty- in my case 450bill twice per day for 2 weeks than once a day using VSL3 then maintaining on Klaire labs) Additionally during this time I used another ARG product called Tricycline to kill materialism that was there and also taking HCL/Betaine with meals for protein digestion. Worked like a charm.

You can get a comprehensive GI stool test by Genova if you want.
Most folks who ate SAD and who have been on various medication in their lifetime, notably antibiotics have issues.

Your gut should be healthy enough to drink OJ if you want - not that you should. I would never drink OJ but if I wanted I could and it wouldn't cause me any issues...

Edited for clarification: I just want to repeat that this was what worked for me (as is clearly stated above). I am not attempting to diagnose or sell anything, rather am simply sharing some specific things that have helped me and my loved ones..., hoping to get Bruno thinking and investigating. Many ways to heal a gut. Some are quicker than others in my experience.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:43 PM

Yes, Crowlover, I do have some digestion issues, and certainly circulation issues. On a sidenote - I tolerate OJ now, by eating sugar, aspirin, and a daily raw carrot. And I gotta say it's probably my favorite food of all, get extremely energetic from it.

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on June 25, 2012
at 01:49 AM

Who cares if it's the advice required?

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:48 PM

Bruno please look into Leaky gut and treating it. Lots of folks say they have done it with diets like GAPS and SCD and FODMAPS and thats great. I used more of a Primal diet and supplements.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 24, 2012
at 09:54 PM

I've tried GAPS, SCD, FODMAPS. Didn't do anything really. Some supplements, especially vitamin D, k2 and A help a lot. So far the best diet I've been on is a Peatarian one. I don't really have digestion problems now, it's mostly circulation problems that started after zero-carbing.

6ba6dc54fccbb9e01a07595137cecfa2

(92)

on June 24, 2012
at 10:03 PM

If someone is allergic to a foodstuff and they build up there immune system.The response to that allergen will increase. Sensitivity is the bodies way of trying to communicate a problem.So the insane statement is spot on. Orange juice is biologically worthless unless insulin sensitivity is what you seek. Dairy is not needed as well.Dumb down sensitivity and tolerance of drugs becomes a way a life. Aspirin is not the answer to health and well being.Insane oh ya and many choose it as a way of life.

2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on June 24, 2012
at 11:05 PM

Jeff, you mean insulin resistance? That aside, I agree.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on June 25, 2012
at 12:06 AM

-1 for giving medical advice and plugging tests and supplements.

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on June 25, 2012
at 06:36 PM

thhq, I said ".. you can get a test if you want." The "natural follow-on" as you call it, is obvious. These are intelligent adults and I don't feel a need to state the obvious in my answer. If you do, fine. People here know how to use advice found on a forum such as this. I personally am not going to spell out every single thing that is obvious or unspoken. If you find that necessary in your Answers, or that's your style - Great. I hope you don't get petty remarks or downvotes for semantics. Modern lawyers? I'm unclear what that has to do with it.

6ba6dc54fccbb9e01a07595137cecfa2

(92)

on June 25, 2012
at 05:27 AM

Yes my bad meant resistance on that one.Anything can be taking as medical advice.But only fools do not research the advice given.Especially advice from a drug dealer/doctor.

4ef079c57d2140bba4dbf4e30240a645

(4413)

on June 25, 2012
at 06:34 PM

thhq, I said ".. you can get a test if you want." The "natural follow-on" as you call it, is obvious. These are intelligent adults and I don't feel a need to state the obvious in my answer. If you do, fine. People here know how to use advice found on a forum such as this. I personally am not going to spell out every single thing that is obvious or unspoken. If you find that necessary in your Answers, or that's your style - Great. I hope you do get petty remarks and downvotes for semantics. Modern lawyers?

Medium avatar

(10611)

on June 25, 2012
at 03:58 PM

"I suspect you have a leaky gut" sounds like a diagnosis to me. But I don't see the natural follow-on: see your doctor and get the diagnostics done to see whether this is true. I know some paleo true-believers like shamans but we're living in modern times, with modern lawyers and medical treatments.

3
0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on June 25, 2012
at 01:55 AM

Neither dairy nor orange juice are necessary, nor particularly healthy, foods - can I ask, what have you gained from paleo?

I have a hard time believing that there isn't some real-food based diet that can benefit you. Perhaps you're trying too hard to fit into prescribed notions of "paleo", macro ratios, etc? Also, have you given things enough time? Your previous question you linked was only in March, three months ago. It took me eight full months before my leaky gut healed to the point where I could include a little bit of casein or gluten without feeling like I had been poisoned.

Strict paleo is an amazing healing tool if you give it ample time and listen to your body's needs - I don't feel it to be a fair assessment at all to call it a "band-aid"; I think the responsibility lies on YOU to experiment with the information that has been provided to you, to find the diet that heals your body to the point where not only you feel amazing day to day, but you can also tolerate amounts of less than ideal foods without crippling detriment. I would be willing to bet quite a bit on the fact that it WILL be a real food based diet. I can't tell you what it looks like beyond that (without sitting down to a thorough consultation with you), but that fact is ubiquitous: we are designed to eat food in it's natural form.

If you really think that real food is causing you detriment, and you were happier before - go back to eating packaged wheat and corn based frankenfoods; we aren't going to be particularly offended - but I feel like you're being impatient and emphasizing the negative here.

0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on June 25, 2012
at 05:40 AM

If you don't like these new-found problematic foods (or the presence of healthy bio-feedback as a whole) - as I said, go back to the way you were. You're going to go through phases where you can't tolerate things due to shifts in gut flora, due to healing processes going on within your body - and you're also going to shift in such a way that you may no longer tolerate certain things permanently. If you're that attached to any one food/food group, you may be going down the wrong rabbit hole.

0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on June 25, 2012
at 01:22 PM

I'm just going to end here: you seem to want a fight. You seem to have a counter argument prepared for any advice anyone here is able to offer you.

0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on June 25, 2012
at 05:39 AM

I KNOW that dairy makes me inflamed; I KNOW that OJ gives me a wicked insulin rush followed by a severe crash. If you want to continue eating detrimental foods and not listening to your body - go for it. But don't whine to us about the fact. Your body's response IS the evidence. Forget pubmed and the science, LISTEN TO YOURSELF for once. You're here telling us "poor me because these things make me feel like crap" - guess what? DON'T EAT THEM! That is what the journey of a real diet is: elimination - it's about learning how your body responds to - every - single - thing - you put into it.

0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on June 25, 2012
at 05:46 AM

And in reply to OJ/energy: have you taken the time to attempt to let your metabolism become fat-adapted? Are you eating enough fat; MCTs? Are you eating healthy sources of glucose for energy? Needing fructose for energy sounds like nothing more than an unsustainable crutch for a carb-dependent metabolism. I apologize for the overall "tough-love" tone of all of this, but it honestly sounds like you're not putting forth the effort necessary to give all of this a chance.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:54 AM

*"but it honestly sounds like you're not putting forth the effort necessary to give all of this a chance"* WHOAH THERE BABEH I worked my ass off.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 04:54 AM

Paleo made me more confident and made me a tad leaner. *"Neither dairy nor orange juice are necessary, nor particularly healthy, foods"* I disagree. Without the milk I would probably still have libido-problems, without the orange juice I would still be tired all day. The simple assumption that veggies or anything 'paleo' is better than orange juice and milk is what drives me a bit nuts here. There is really, really no evidence of that.

0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on June 25, 2012
at 05:40 AM

Also - try starches for your libido. Mine was absolutely gone on VLC, but returned in full force with the addition of potatoes, sweet potatoes, and squash. The other thought I have there (given that milk helps) is that it may be cholestrol based? Are you getting enough animal fat?

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:45 AM

I do not have problems with OJ or milk anymore, actually solved tons of my problems with it (sleep, libido, hair loss, inability to gain muscle, ...). I listened to myself for 6 months, for fucks sake, eliminated everything that was harming me, it never helped. *"go back to the way you were"* So back to the SAD you mean, and give up? I tried starches, thanks. Screwed up my digestion. What makes you think I need any advice now for libido or anything else? I'm feeling pretty good now, thanks.

0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on June 25, 2012
at 05:07 AM

Have you tried starch for your libido? Mine was terrible on VLC, but returned in full force with the addition of potatoes and squashes. And for that matter, have you tried some sort of glucose based energy source (not to mention MCTs; we are still operating in fat-is-acceptable paradigm here, right?) for energy? OJ seems like a cheap, unsustainable, fix for a carb-dependent metabolism. It's your choice if you don't want to develop metabolic flexibility, but don't blame us because you need pure sugar on an hourly schedule just to function... that's called metabolic syndrome.

3
32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on June 25, 2012
at 01:35 AM

What's apparent to me is that paleo diet adherents are more likely the sickest, most screwed up people. They're dependent on it to function normally. Normal folks (which I do consider myself) don't get much immediate benefit from a paleo diet.

The problem with the folks depend on the paleo diet is that I'm pretty sure they've completely totaled their guts: permanently leaky. They're not going to improve and it makes sense that the severity and breadth of their sensitivities only increases over time.

34b560c8b9ce660d7839fb7e29d7be89

on June 25, 2012
at 10:03 AM

I agree in part but I think if you look at PH's most active users as of late, if you've been registered or lurking for a while, you'll see that a lot of formerly very active posters have for the most part moved on. I think many of them have experienced some degree of healing and are expanding the narrow framework of paleo, some to a more WAPF approach or whatever. For the most part when I log on now I see newbs posting/arguing like they've read one paleo book/blog and are obsessed with carbs or dairy or "evil gluten" or *neolithic* this or that.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on June 25, 2012
at 10:39 AM

@Amerindian Yes. There many new people posting now that have no backing at all in what paleo is, that are making it up for themselves without listening to experienced people, that whine and b***h about the deprivations. It's frustrating to watch, and the huge percentage of new members has thrown off the opportunities for them to even get the basic learning in that they need to thrive. I'm sure we're looking at dozens of new versions of how to do a faileo diet. What to do is the question. Maybe Patrik needs to adjust the points system. I don't know. This needs to be fixed though.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:39 AM

I like your take on it, Matt.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on June 25, 2012
at 12:51 PM

I think there are two types of people who benefit from paleo: those that just need a little healing and normalization & those who need a diet for life because they're too far gone.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on June 25, 2012
at 12:57 PM

Some newer PHers take issue with my recommendations now, as I come off very lax on paleo verboten foods. I've just progressed through paleo at a quick pace, and can see why folks simply move on.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 12:57 PM

Amerindian - I thought they became less strict because it is not necessary. Richard at free the animal never cut out beer, right? The big question is if recovery is due to elimination, or because of higher nutrient-density (more fat-solubles) and other things that have been added to the diet. For example, elimination just made everything worse for me, but adding aspirin solved 2 intolerances.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 12:54 PM

Karen - I don't know why you're being so hateful, and I sure hope you're not talking about me. I've tried very strict paleo for months and months, it just made it worse, and decreased my tolerance for food. Maybe you're lucky and you had success, it doesn't make you experienced nor does that mean that people who are still looking are whining. Very closed-minded of you. What makes nuts or veggies so much more paleo than orange juice anyways? I'm sure if Grok found an orange tree he would throw away the broccoli in his backpack.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 02:21 PM

Oh okay that's true, kinda why I'm asking this question, as elimination seems to be very very common advice on here.

34b560c8b9ce660d7839fb7e29d7be89

on June 25, 2012
at 11:49 AM

Not me Bruno, I don't see many increasing their sensitivities after an initial adjustment stage, which may last 6mo or a year+. If you read between the lines a lot of paleo bloggers have even eased up on some of the basic paleo tenents. I think it is because after a period of elimination and healing, some can experience a level of recovery that allows for the slow re-introduction of foods that would have elicited a negative response previously. A lot of the people in that category are no longer as active in paleo circles because they are no longer strictly paleo.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on June 25, 2012
at 01:31 PM

@Bruno, I don't think Karen is talking about you at all. She is talking about newbs doing the faileo diet (Cordain), which does produce a lot of confusion. Especially when they come here and say "Why are you all eating butter and potatoes? That's not paleo." You experience is perfectly valid and I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people have similar experiences. I think Dr. Harris (and others) are correct in that food intolerances come down to gut flora/gut biome. Perhaps not eating something leads to a die-off of the necessary biota for that food?

34b560c8b9ce660d7839fb7e29d7be89

on June 25, 2012
at 10:58 AM

For a lot of them the mantra, "search function is your friend" would do wonders. But the upvote system is subject to all the frailties of human nature. We've all seen snarky answers that were submitted early on recieve lots of upvotes while an answer that actually addresses the question fully recieve no love as it was not clever or submitted while the question was still hot. Does the former poster deserve a higher "reputation" and thus more value attributed to their posts relative to the latter poster?

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on June 25, 2012
at 12:54 PM

For myself, I started eating paleo because I thought it to be a very healthy diet and I still hold that opinion. I just think that, for most folks, it goes about 3 steps too far. I've reintroduced corn and rice, and occasional wheat. I still minimize foodstuffs that are on the paleo blacklist, but only because there's so much out there better.

2
B4b56fcc5ebad76ed8e1709dedf01f86

on June 25, 2012
at 02:17 PM

I have a friend who is really struggling on paleo. She ate relatively well before (debatable here, I know), but lots of greens and fish, some meat and whole grains, some tofu, very little sugar. She cut the tofu and grains and added more safe starches and she has developed reflux. It continued for several weeks so she did some research and decided to go VLC and eliminate dairy and caffeine. It's been 3 weeks and no improvement. She says everything she eats makes her burpy and acidy. An endoscopy showed inflammation of the lower esophagus and lots of redness in her stomach (Dr. said it was not typical). Anyway, she's not giving up, but I sure do feel badly for her. So yes, right now her diet is making her worse. I hope it will eventually make her better, but it does worry me. Thought this was worth sharing - anyone who has had a similar experience, please chime in!

E68bdbd83e45fd5be130e393ace9c9a9

(2063)

on June 25, 2012
at 06:34 PM

It's also pretty easy to say "you only THINK you're getting worse because you didn't realize how crappy you felt all the time before!"

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 02:24 PM

Thanks for sharing tummyrumblr. Has she tried baking soda yet? Seems to be a quick fix for some people, and there's really no harm in trying.

68294383ced9a0eafc16133aa80d1905

(5795)

on June 25, 2012
at 02:56 PM

This also has to be taken in context of "how is it making her worse?" Just feeling worse? She cut out soy and grains. Those are major irritants. While it seems she certainly has some unresolved digestive issues, the benefits of cutting out those foods (and dairy/caffeine can't hurt either) may just be unrecognizable. I don't think anyone in this thread is wrong, just open for interpretation. When we start throwing around terms like "making us worse" or "feeling bad" it leaves a lot of room for inaccuracy and assumption as those can be defined different in each case.

E68bdbd83e45fd5be130e393ace9c9a9

(2063)

on June 25, 2012
at 06:38 PM

Thanks for sharing, tummyrumbler... I hope your friend feels better soon. I have had one health condition get progressively worse after 3 months of very strict autoimmune paleo (doing much better in some other respects). Of course it's possible that my rosacea would have gotten worse even if I hadn't changed my diet, but its exacerbation just matched my diet changes too neatly for me to think it's a coincidence. Not giving up, just frustrated that people assume I'm doing it wrong or imagining things.

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on June 26, 2012
at 08:06 AM

starches are not really great for MANY people, tell your friend to stop. go back to what was working for her minus the tofu & grains.

B4b56fcc5ebad76ed8e1709dedf01f86

(660)

on June 25, 2012
at 02:33 PM

I will ask! Thank you.

2
D8c04730b5d016a839b3c5b932bf59dd

on June 24, 2012
at 10:00 PM

In what world is orange juice a paleo food? I know dairy is debatable. What dairy did you consume? I've been allergic to dairy since I was 18, and now I can tolerate small amounts, where I could not before. So paleo is definitely not make me worse. I've never cared all that much for orange juice, it has a tendency to close my throat, but it did that long before I'd heard of paleo.

Are you talking about commercially produced orange juice? Because there's no way that's a paleo food. Do you know how they make it always taste the same? If you're juicing your own, it's never going to taste the same two days in a row. I can't imagine the blood sugar spike it would cause, and that alone could make you feel sick. Eating paleo regulates your blood sugar in a more even way, to ask your body to handle the spike is a heavy burden to the system.

My understanding of paleo is that for one, it's radically different than they way most ate previous to eating paleo. My understanding was not 'this is a way to heal so you can go back to eating all the stuff you ate before.' For another, paleo is a highly individualized and personalized diet. Each one has to determine what works for themselves. And the axiom that goes along with that is: If it hurts, don't do it.

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:41 AM

I would agree, Karen, if we were all Neanderthalers. Orange juice has been used for centuries, I don't think many people didn't tolerate it. And as I said above, I used to tolerate it fine. Just because modern world has changed things doesn't mean those changes are bad. There's still little evidence that suggests sugar itself is really bad.

05055dcbf12c81f1cce777ec365870af

(1791)

on June 26, 2012
at 08:05 AM

ever seen traditional people eat fruit? suck the juice out and spit out all that wonderfully healthy and glorious fiber? they must not know something and need us to teach them!

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on June 25, 2012
at 04:50 AM

But in what world should orange juice not be tolerated? It's fresh squeezed, but it does taste the same to me all the time :).

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on June 25, 2012
at 10:30 AM

A world where most people just ate the orange with all the accompany fiber and pulp. A world where people did not eat excessive amounts of sugar, including the sudden influx of massive amounts of sugar in liquid form whether sodas or orange juice. You know, a paleolithic era world.

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