4

votes

acne dandruff and hairloss

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created June 25, 2012 at 7:57 PM

I have these 3 problems caused by very high sebum production.

I've tried no shampoo method but I get these itchy welt acne lesions at my nape area after about 3-4 weeks of no washing.

I've tried high dose vitamin a combined with eating high amounts of liver, all I got from that was very dry painful eyes.

Does anyone have any recommendations?

The 3 dietary strategies I think may be useful are. Please critique. I will include a link to the places that recommend each diet.

  1. very low carb - no explination needed, your body uses all the oils and the skin won't get as much of it. (sidenote: i feel terrible on this diet and get heart palpitations.) http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-advice-for-acne-sufferers/#axzz1z8AyWATP

  2. starch diet. High carb but low GI load. this, along with 1 is a lot of cooked foods. http://hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=10&threadid=97393&enterthread=y

  3. raw food diet. mostly fruit and raw eggs/avacado's. Eating some fat with fruit to lower the GI load of the meal somewhat.
    http://www.waiworld.com/waidiet/thewaidiet.html

A39237551dac75eb36335098b0f5fa61

(525)

on July 05, 2012
at 02:37 AM

Vitamin A definitely plays a role in acne. Deficiency of vitamin A in the skin contributes to hyperkeratinization, basically skin cells are bonded together too tightly and when they die they can't separate. Zinc is an important in the antioxidant pathways. It's been shown to be helpful both topically and orally as a supplement. It may also hinder conversion of T to DHT in the skin glands and thus reduce sebum production.

A39237551dac75eb36335098b0f5fa61

(525)

on July 05, 2012
at 02:35 AM

I got the reference ranges for blood glucose levels from here: http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/16422495.php. I was a bit worried about my fasting levels, but more worried about post-prandial levels that at times touched 200 30 minutes after a meal.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on July 04, 2012
at 02:13 PM

Also, on a sidenote, even if vitamin A wouldn't play a role in sebum, don't you think it's still extremely important in acne? I mean, with the whole accutane hype and the success of retinol supplementation (or zinc supplementation) for acne ... I appreciate your input on here Seppo!

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on July 04, 2012
at 02:10 PM

I'm not sure, and Paul Jaminet disagrees : http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/11/safe-starches-symposium-dr-ron-rosedale/

A39237551dac75eb36335098b0f5fa61

(525)

on July 04, 2012
at 01:42 PM

I don't know. I've read that 90-95 is at pre-diabetic range and that it significantly increases my risk of getting diabetes in the future.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on July 04, 2012
at 10:44 AM

90-95 is pretty good though...

A39237551dac75eb36335098b0f5fa61

(525)

on July 04, 2012
at 08:08 AM

Because I measured my blood glucose levels while I was on it. I noticed that my fasting sugars were between 90 and 95, and at times my postprandial readings touched 200.

7c2b34b8626dc30e40567283c4ad1e1c

(686)

on July 03, 2012
at 06:04 PM

@Greensun, it's all the same brother. The same hormones that cause excess sebum (estrogen) cause hair loss. Estrogen promotes keratinization (shedding of skin cells) while vitamin A opposes it. Do use vitamin A properly you to be producing enough triiodothyronine (T3).

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on July 03, 2012
at 08:09 AM

*"but I almost gave myself diabetes while following this"* how do you know though?

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on July 03, 2012
at 08:02 AM

*"but I have good reason to believe fruit juice caused my uncles diabetes"* And what might that good reason be :P, very curious? IMO fruit < fruit juice, but hey that's just me. I prefer sugar by far instead of starch, as any kind of starch gives me some kind of digestion issues (bloating most of the time). As far as I know sucrose has not been shown to cause insulin resistance, though excess PUFA does that.

56e59609362978a9dcb390fdeb45427f

(576)

on June 26, 2012
at 10:07 PM

It's really a balancing act. The more sugar you eat the more vitamin A you need. I eat about 300 grams of carbohydrate just from sugar alone a day, I balance that with about 6 ounces of liver a week. The faster your metabolism (which sugar raises) the more you need vitamin A. Not too much, not too little. Also if your diet is low in PUFA, your need for vitamin E is probably very low. I'm not affiliated with Danny Roddy at all so this isn't a sales pitch, but buying his "Hair Like a Fox" book helped make sense of everything Ray Peat. Sample meal plans, how much of each food, etc.

E8c2167284f0cdd16a12bea2741975b4

(476)

on June 26, 2012
at 02:53 AM

so what i derive is that either my condition is related to over consumption of fruit/sugar, cooked "dirty" proteins, fat + sugar, fat by itself or not diet related at all

E8c2167284f0cdd16a12bea2741975b4

(476)

on June 26, 2012
at 02:52 AM

this is what ive been trying. most of my cals from fruit, supplementing gelatin, vitamin a, vit e, and shellfish. coconut + carrots... no results.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:21 PM

As far as carbohydrates go I prefer starch. When I eat a lot of starchy foods such as sweet potatoes and plantains (at least 400 carbs worth) my toenail fungus goes away. My facial seb derm and dandruff are a little more difficult to figure out. Some days its good other days it isn't as good. I could never pin point what worsens it or makes it better.

E8c2167284f0cdd16a12bea2741975b4

(476)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:03 PM

It sounds terrible. Like a trip to diabetes. I know Peat recommends fruit juice also, but I have good reason to believe fruit juice caused my uncles diabetes. Probably combined with a rich diet. I'm not sure I agree to forgo a little fiber that might facilitate bacteria growth in favor of a fruit juice that would screw with my insulin. Fruit>fruit juice.

E8c2167284f0cdd16a12bea2741975b4

(476)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:01 PM

Yeah, I was afraid of this. I'll look into the diet you mentioned to find out the macro's and stuff.

E8c2167284f0cdd16a12bea2741975b4

(476)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:00 PM

I don't know if I have the typical hairloss though. I know what Danny Roddy recommends, b ut I think my problem is exclusively sebum related, not thyroid.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on June 25, 2012
at 10:36 PM

The Wai Diet sounds very glycating.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on June 25, 2012
at 10:36 PM

The Waidiet sounds very glycating.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on June 25, 2012
at 08:01 PM

anecdotally I have a friend who follows the waidiet and her skin is nearly perfect. She counts calories, which I think is important when eating something similar to wai or ray peat, because it's a lot of liquid calories that can add up fast if you aren't conscious.

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8 Answers

2
A39237551dac75eb36335098b0f5fa61

(525)

on September 07, 2013
at 12:44 AM

High sebum is usually caused by excess DHT acting on the hair glands. DHT is converted from T in the gland itself by an enzyme called 5-alpha reductase, and this conversion has been shown to be overactive in people with acne. There are substances that can block the action of this enzyme and that way reduce sebum production. These include: green tea extract, saw palmetto, zinc and GLA.

Vitamin A, to my knowledge, doesn't play a role in sebum production. It does affect keratin levels in the skin and that way contribute to acne though.

As to diet, anything that keeps your insulin and blood sugar levels under control is going to help. Low-carb diets also help, but I'm not a fan of them because they restrict your life too much.

More details about these, please check here: http://www.acneeinstein.com/oily-skin-remedies/

As to the diets you mentioned:

1) Usually works but hard to stick to and high fat intake causes problems with glucose metabolism so when you eat carbs you can expect your sugars to go crazy.

2) Doesn't sound too bad. I'm not sure why you would restrict fruits. In the link they talk about fructose being converted into fats. While that's true I don't think anyone has shown it to be a problem under normal circumstances.

3) Based on fallacious logic. I know this works for some people, but I almost gave myself diabetes while following this.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on July 03, 2012
at 08:09 AM

*"but I almost gave myself diabetes while following this"* how do you know though?

A39237551dac75eb36335098b0f5fa61

(525)

on July 04, 2012
at 08:08 AM

Because I measured my blood glucose levels while I was on it. I noticed that my fasting sugars were between 90 and 95, and at times my postprandial readings touched 200.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on July 04, 2012
at 02:10 PM

I'm not sure, and Paul Jaminet disagrees : http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/11/safe-starches-symposium-dr-ron-rosedale/

A39237551dac75eb36335098b0f5fa61

(525)

on July 04, 2012
at 01:42 PM

I don't know. I've read that 90-95 is at pre-diabetic range and that it significantly increases my risk of getting diabetes in the future.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on July 04, 2012
at 10:44 AM

90-95 is pretty good though...

A39237551dac75eb36335098b0f5fa61

(525)

on July 05, 2012
at 02:37 AM

Vitamin A definitely plays a role in acne. Deficiency of vitamin A in the skin contributes to hyperkeratinization, basically skin cells are bonded together too tightly and when they die they can't separate. Zinc is an important in the antioxidant pathways. It's been shown to be helpful both topically and orally as a supplement. It may also hinder conversion of T to DHT in the skin glands and thus reduce sebum production.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on July 04, 2012
at 02:13 PM

Also, on a sidenote, even if vitamin A wouldn't play a role in sebum, don't you think it's still extremely important in acne? I mean, with the whole accutane hype and the success of retinol supplementation (or zinc supplementation) for acne ... I appreciate your input on here Seppo!

A39237551dac75eb36335098b0f5fa61

(525)

on July 05, 2012
at 02:35 AM

I got the reference ranges for blood glucose levels from here: http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/16422495.php. I was a bit worried about my fasting levels, but more worried about post-prandial levels that at times touched 200 30 minutes after a meal.

2
7cf9f5b08a41ecf2a2d2bc0b31ea6fa0

on June 25, 2012
at 10:35 PM

Try using bicarbonate of soda as a shampoo then use normal conditioner

Also try putting olive oil on your face at night and leaving it on (rub it in and dab off the excess with a tissue) it won't clog your pores but it will tell your skin to stop producing so much sebum because there is plenty of oil, it also makes your skin look better

Do not go low carb for hairloss, try reading some Danny Roddy

Also, all this strict tinkering with your diet can cause unnecessary stress, try just relaxing a bit if you can and don't worry too much, mentality is an important nutrient

E8c2167284f0cdd16a12bea2741975b4

(476)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:00 PM

I don't know if I have the typical hairloss though. I know what Danny Roddy recommends, b ut I think my problem is exclusively sebum related, not thyroid.

7c2b34b8626dc30e40567283c4ad1e1c

(686)

on July 03, 2012
at 06:04 PM

@Greensun, it's all the same brother. The same hormones that cause excess sebum (estrogen) cause hair loss. Estrogen promotes keratinization (shedding of skin cells) while vitamin A opposes it. Do use vitamin A properly you to be producing enough triiodothyronine (T3).

0
3959828c57f2aeddc08e5f374e92ad36

on March 28, 2013
at 08:08 AM

I had some success detoxing with herbs (for facial acne, PMs and hair loss) I took DIM, Vitex, milk thistle, burdock root (and now calcium D glucarate).

My hair loss count lowered quickly and stopped after 2 months, my acne was almost gone after 1 month. It also got rid of milk eczema (dry patches)

Only problem I had was coming out of a ketogenic diet. I never had acne prior to it and started having a bunch of really bad problems when eating vlc. My hair started falling out, I had heart palpitations too, i started having PMS, inflammatory pains, my thyroid and liver went bad. Read my posts if you want to go through some of the advice I received.

0
8f4421e205f3e88ecda8f1504983c608

on March 28, 2013
at 06:45 AM

Sounds like your scalp, skin and hair would benefit from the healing properties of aloe. It actually contains enzymes that lift scale from your scalp, has healing properties for your skin and hair growth stimulating properties as well. I've successfully used this Aloe Honey "Shampoo" for a year (as needed) and I've been itch and flake free ever since.

No More Dry Scalp Aloe Honey "Shampoo" Recipe

Ingredients

  • 1/4 c of homemade aloe gel or store bought like Forever Aloe Vera Gel
  • 2 TBS Honey

Directions

  1. Combine all in your mini-food processor or blender. Make as smooth as possible. You don’t want any aloe chunks left in your hair.
  2. Take straight to the shower and shampoo. Leave on for a few minutes (the longer the better) than rinse out completely with water. That’s it.

Get all the details on why aloe and honey are good for your scalp and helping promote new hair growth by reading the original Aloe Honey "Shampoo" recipe (above) and explains all the "whys" of how it works.

Try dabbing the fresh aloe gel onto your acne in the morning to ease redness, then at night a drop of tea tree oil applied to those same spots will help kill the acne causing bacteria on your skin. Don't worry about putting oil on acne prone skin - it won't cause more acne. You should also consider doing the "oil cleanse method" for your skin care. In 3 days your skin will have improved dramatically and it will help prevent new break outs.

0
525a9529f3ae380b3833aa3cf4899af9

on September 21, 2012
at 12:49 AM

leaving olive oil on your face overnight does not trick your body into thinking it needs/should produce less sebum. No study has shown any method like that to reduce sebum, lots of anecdotal evidence from people say it does, but they never actually check their face oil levels with sebutape or the like, people also say oil pulling cures every single one of their problems they ever had i.e. anecdotal evidence means almost nothing somtimes. It's just rife with confirmation bias.

Excess DHT also does not increase sebum in an adult male, check the studies. If you decrease DHT down to normal levels sebum does not decrease, the normal level for an adult male is already more than enough for the sebum to be at max, but thyroid problems can increase sebum. Animals who have excess oil on their skin and are given thyroid treatment (if thyroid is the problem) have normal sebum levels after that.

0
A199212ae3f105f0fbfb8d8b8e2874a8

on June 26, 2012
at 02:14 AM

Acne and dandruff are probably vitamin A deficiency. Too much vitamin A can also cause the same symptoms as deficiency though, so balance it out. 4-6 ounces of liver a week or 10 days is pretty good.

Dannyroddy.com might be the place to get your hair loss in check. In my opinion a low carb, raw food, or starch diet won't be helpful in your situation.

E8c2167284f0cdd16a12bea2741975b4

(476)

on June 26, 2012
at 02:52 AM

this is what ive been trying. most of my cals from fruit, supplementing gelatin, vitamin a, vit e, and shellfish. coconut + carrots... no results.

E8c2167284f0cdd16a12bea2741975b4

(476)

on June 26, 2012
at 02:53 AM

so what i derive is that either my condition is related to over consumption of fruit/sugar, cooked "dirty" proteins, fat + sugar, fat by itself or not diet related at all

56e59609362978a9dcb390fdeb45427f

(576)

on June 26, 2012
at 10:07 PM

It's really a balancing act. The more sugar you eat the more vitamin A you need. I eat about 300 grams of carbohydrate just from sugar alone a day, I balance that with about 6 ounces of liver a week. The faster your metabolism (which sugar raises) the more you need vitamin A. Not too much, not too little. Also if your diet is low in PUFA, your need for vitamin E is probably very low. I'm not affiliated with Danny Roddy at all so this isn't a sales pitch, but buying his "Hair Like a Fox" book helped make sense of everything Ray Peat. Sample meal plans, how much of each food, etc.

0
B885dc10c6263f5a4492205d50560bee

(401)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:03 PM

I also used to have dandruff and the acne lesion itchy godawfulpainful bumps on my scalp/nape and no conventional shampoo, organic shampoo, or no 'poo would work. The only thing that's worked for me at all are J.R. Liggett's shampoo bars, which are basically just old-fashioned soap (coconut oil, olive oil, etc.), with tea tree oil. I wash twice a week or so, and once or twice a month wash with straight white vinegar followed by the shampoo bar. The tea tree oil keeps away the bumps/sores and also helps mildly with dandruff, and the vinegar wash really eliminates the dandruff.

I've tried other shampoo bars from small businesses and Etsy, but only the J.R. ones have ever worked (for me, at least). They're pretty cheap if you just want to try a bar out for a month or two.

0
747f9c27424619fe3ae717c7455c292e

on June 25, 2012
at 09:57 PM

My acne, dandruff, and excess sebum production were probably never nearly as bad as yours. However, I'll mention what I found for myself, in case you find it useful.

Going VLC lowered my sebum production tremendously. I couldn't stop touching my face because of how non-greasy it felt!

After reading the Perfect Health Diet, I reintroduced moderate amounts of starches, and my skin remained great.

So for me it was not the carbs in general, but the fruit (I'm assuming fructose) in particular that were leading to excess sebum production. (Perhaps fructose malabsorbtion due to dysbiosis and leaky gut.)

Try dropping fruit and see if that does anything for you.

E8c2167284f0cdd16a12bea2741975b4

(476)

on June 25, 2012
at 11:01 PM

Yeah, I was afraid of this. I'll look into the diet you mentioned to find out the macro's and stuff.

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