4

votes

Could Serum Triglycerides Get Caught in a Positive Feedback Loop?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created September 16, 2011 at 6:08 AM

After having given Jack's seemingly inexplicable lipid panel some thought, I think I may have figured out what occurred. Because Jack has very little body fat, he is broadcasting a fairly weak leptin signal to his hypothalamus. Under normal circumstances, this wouldn't be a problem and no red flags would be raised. However, with the introduction of a relatively small amount of fructose, I believe that Jack spiked his VLDL and thus serum triglycerides via de novo lipogenesis in the liver. Because of how little circulating leptin there is, it didn't take much in the way of triglycerides to block leptin's passage across the blood-brain barrier. Suddenly, the hypothalamus thinks that Jack's body fat has somehow plummeted and he's starving to death. The hypothalamus then upregulates de novo lipogenesis and triglycerides rise further. These triglycerides then further cement the simulated starvation as viewed by the hypothalamus. Only with an intervention like the one I described in the aforementioned post can this cycle be interrupted and VLDL/TGs be cleared from circulation.

It would seem that with regard to lowering serum triglycerides, people with more fat mass actually have an advantage due to the greater strength of their leptin signalling. It's a novel theory, anyway.

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on September 16, 2011
at 05:04 PM

i do realize that, which is why i commented, because my trigs were below 50 i think when i got them reading, while anorexic

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on September 16, 2011
at 05:03 PM

true, i have the highest temp readings on days i sleep until i naturally wake up. i carb cycled for a while and every day of 'high carb' resulted in low morning temps...FWIW b/c many claim carbs will help up temp, i am opposite. butter, liver, eggs, avocados, meat all make my temps soar up

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 16, 2011
at 04:12 PM

You make some good points, but it's unlikely that you have the ability to force your body temperature lower. The steak thing was, as I said, an unscientific way that I personally gauge changes in appetite. If you eat the same thing every day while losing fat and appetite trends upward, it stands to reason that the hypothalamus may be involved, right?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 16, 2011
at 04:08 PM

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2362.1976.tb00509.x/abstract

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 16, 2011
at 04:06 PM

I guess I'm not clear on the chronology, but if you were not eating much, but were in casts and couldn't exercise for 6 months, then I would expect TGs to rise. That TGs rise with starvation isn't something I'm making up, it's a well-documented phenomenon, however, whether they stay high or not comes down to how active the person is.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 16, 2011
at 03:59 PM

You make some good points, but it's unlikely that you have the ability to force your body temperature lower. The steak thing was, as I said, and unscientific way that I personally gauge changes in appetite. If you eat the same thing every day while losing fat and appetite trends upward, it stands to reason that the hypothalamus may be involved, right?

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on September 16, 2011
at 03:44 PM

from zc. i had calculated high cholesterol on ZC, and after being screwed in insurance from one blood work i never got another.

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on September 16, 2011
at 03:43 PM

"If you eat plenty, exercise with high insulin, but your hypothalamus still thinks you're starving, I believe that TGs could become elevated." But they werent, even on zero carb for an entire year eating upwards of 4000-4500 calories a day. i never gave up exercise until i was forced under watch by people and couldnt leave the house. when i quit ZC and started paleo and gained some common sense after a relapse i wasnt exercising b/c i was put in straight casts for like 6 months due to knee problems. with what you say, my trigs should be high. i think they were low UNTIL i swicthed to paleo

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 16, 2011
at 03:38 PM

Mallory: How active were you during your period of anorexia? If someone were not eating anything (low insulin) and active, they would be oxidizing their serum triglycerides at a rapid rate, so they wouldn't get very high. If you eat plenty, exercise with high insulin, but your hypothalamus still thinks you're starving, I believe that TGs could become elevated.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 16, 2011
at 03:37 PM

A less scientific way to test the former would be to eat a 16oz steak by itself for a meal and see how many hours of satiety you get. I used to get 7-8 hours but now it's closer to 5 as my bodyfat has dropped. If you're getting 3-4 hours out of it, your hypothalamus is increasing appetite.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 16, 2011
at 03:35 PM

You would know your hypothalamus is receiving a weak leptin signal because your appetite would be higher than your activity would explain and your body temperature would be low. An easy way to test the latter is to take your oral temperature immediately upon waking. If it seems really low, (and you're not hypothyroid due to I/Se deficiencies, which I don't believe you are) then the hypothyroid is conserving energy. It'd be better to have a prior test of the same type to compare this to, but you'll know if it seems low.

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on September 16, 2011
at 03:30 PM

MAAAAYYYBE. you should stop worrying. your eating healthy. maybe low HDL is a signal of balance. when it rises there are undoubtedly changes going on, not always something you want. WHAT IF....you just may be fine, and healthy :)

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 16, 2011
at 03:30 PM

Jack: First off, I'm not saying that the fructose you've eaten since July is to blame, I'm saying that the initial fructose-induced DNL push could be months back but that once it's caught in the loop, unless you strongly intervene with something like VLC or that protocol (that both essentially do the same thing) it could stay elevated.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 03:16 PM

*"He also needs focus about his low HDL forget everything else."* Quilt - How do you propose I do this? Your suggestion to eliminate dairy? Do you think something in the dairy is downregulating my LDL receptor activity, causing a stymied HDL? Becuase I focused HARD on trying to do everything I could to raise my HDL, and it lowered! I ate more egg yolks, dark chocolate, red wine, coconut oil, red palm oil, avocado, raised my VitD. All to no avail.

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on September 16, 2011
at 03:11 PM

I had real low trigs when i was anorexic, dont know about leptin but i wasnt ever hungry either. i dont think leptin is what it is being kicked up to be. it is just a signal, like trigs, of changes in the body as it attempts to find hormesis you theory is intriguing though, it makes a lot of sense to me(i love all your posts though ha)

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 03:08 PM

Travis - How can I tell if I have low leptin?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 03:06 PM

Regarding your second comment, I am seriously considering quitting cream and butter. Why do you say ghee is ok? Is it because you are thinking at that point it isn't dairy since it's just the fat oil? One possible concern with ghee is that it's still palmitic acid, and it could be so that a diet high in palmitic acid is causing my lab numbers. See? So many different avenues I could take. It's hard to figure out what direction I should go.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 03:05 PM

Quilt - regarding your first comment, you may be correct about your experience, but I've never been in your office. What Travis is saying could be plausible. I reduced my fructose, by I did not eliminate it. I still eat berries and consumed about 8oz of honey over a 2 month period (I know that's not much at all but still, it is some fructose). Also, I did have several Kombucha drinks during this time period. The label says 4-8 g of sugar, but it tastes sweeter than that. I am suspicious that the fermentation process is not eating the sugars as much as GT's believes. lol.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 03:03 PM

Regarding your second comment, I am seriously considering quitting cream and butter. Why do you say ghee is ok? Is it because you are thinking at that point it isn't dairy since it's just the fat oil? One possible concern with ghee is that it's still palmitic acid, and it could be so that a diet high in palmitic acid is causing my lab numbers. See? So many different avenues I could take. It's hard to figure out what direction I should go.

44348571d9bc70c02ac2975cc500f154

(5853)

on September 16, 2011
at 03:00 PM

Why ghee, wouldnt it better to have only coconut? and perhaps marrow fat ;) I have these unoptimal lipids too, i ditched all dairy stuff, and doing coconut only. I propably have leaky gut. I like coconut for my vegs but perhaps i will reorder a large batch of some duck fat. I use beef marrow fat too. I get free marrow bones. And tomorrow i will recieve a lambs head which i will roast. Will be wild thing to prepare in kitchen. Next month reindeer from Lapland... Little steep for my income tho, :(

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on September 16, 2011
at 03:00 PM

Quilt - regarding your first comment, you may be correct about your experience, but I've never been in your office. What Travis is saying could be plausible. I *reduced* my fructose, by I did not eliminate it. I still eat berries and consumed about 8oz of hunny over a 2 month period (I know that's not much at all but still, it is some fructose). Also, I did have several Kombucha drinks during this time period. The label says 4-8 g of sugar, but it tastes sweeter than that. I am suspicious that the fermentation process is not eating the sugars as much as GT's believes. lol.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 16, 2011
at 02:41 PM

I think dairy has to go 100% and he needs free and total T optimized with his T3 and vitamin a and D. He also needs focus about his low HDL forget everything else. I bet he has a taste of FH with a leaky gut. I have suspected it long ago and why I been banging the drum for testing and eliminated all dairy in his case. He needs to make coconut oil or ghee his diesel.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on September 16, 2011
at 02:12 PM

Nice theory but my experience tells me this is not likely. Those with low leptin levels have very low TGs. The fact jack does not is a sign to look for other causes

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2 Answers

1
1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on September 16, 2011
at 03:50 PM

WOAH, steak determines your entire body process of eating and balance? appetite is a process, a BIG and LONG process, not a feeling post steak gorging. it is lots of signals, lots of hormones, lots of everything and a lot we do not know. your hypothalamus is more centric on what your thinking and feeling in relation to your life, your sleep etc.

you can 'tell' yourself a lot. for example, i can eat 16 oz of steak and not eat again for 2-3 days just because i can tell myself to disregard hunger(which is a feeling i dont feel anyways) but that doesnt mean my hypothalamus isnt acting in opposition to that or that there are 100 other detrimental things going on elsewhere in my mind and body when i dont eat for 2-3 days.

i need some clarification where your coming from on this... please, cuz youre a lot smarter than I haha

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 16, 2011
at 03:59 PM

You make some good points, but it's unlikely that you have the ability to force your body temperature lower. The steak thing was, as I said, and unscientific way that I personally gauge changes in appetite. If you eat the same thing every day while losing fat and appetite trends upward, it stands to reason that the hypothalamus may be involved, right?

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on September 16, 2011
at 05:03 PM

true, i have the highest temp readings on days i sleep until i naturally wake up. i carb cycled for a while and every day of 'high carb' resulted in low morning temps...FWIW b/c many claim carbs will help up temp, i am opposite. butter, liver, eggs, avocados, meat all make my temps soar up

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 16, 2011
at 04:12 PM

You make some good points, but it's unlikely that you have the ability to force your body temperature lower. The steak thing was, as I said, an unscientific way that I personally gauge changes in appetite. If you eat the same thing every day while losing fat and appetite trends upward, it stands to reason that the hypothalamus may be involved, right?

0
44348571d9bc70c02ac2975cc500f154

(5853)

on September 16, 2011
at 03:00 PM

Why ghee, wouldnt it better to have only coconut? and perhaps marrow fat ;) I have these unoptimal lipids too, i ditched all dairy stuff, and doing coconut only. I propably have leaky gut. I like coconut for my vegs but perhaps i will reorder a large batch of some duck fat. I use beef marrow fat too. I get free marrow bones. And tomorrow i will recieve a lambs head which i will roast. Will be wild thing to prepare in kitchen. Next month reindeer from Lapland... Little steep for my income tho, :(

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