67

votes

[Meta] What's the deal with PaleoHacks, Dr. Kruse and the FBI?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created May 08, 2012 at 7:43 PM

Alright guys --- was hoping this would blow over and we could move on from this sh*tshow, but apparently not, so here it goes:

Some of you may be aware that popular Paleohacks user Dr. Jack Kruse (AKA the Quilt) had been escorted off the Low Carb Cruise.

It looks like the facts are:

There was a Twitter account called @ShitKruseSays that collected Dr. Kruse's most ridiculous quotes.

Although the account was an obvious parody, they also engaged in role-playing and a tweet last week apparently read "security confiscated dynamite. talk won???t be as explosive as one at PaleoFx. still have vial of Legionnaires for epic biohack. #lccruise12."

Which was in reference to his use of the word dynamite as rhetorical device at PaleoFX and MRSA in his TedX talk.

Then, someone unknown, who apparently called themselves "Lance", called Carnival and warned them about a potential bio-hack, presumably implying it was a real threat and not a parody. Carnival alerted authorities who investigated and cleared Jack. Unfortunately, Carnival decided to remove him from the ship because they thought the situation was questionable.

http://www.newschannel5.com/story/18169740/nashville-surgeon-target-of-cyber-attack-kicked-off-cruise-ship

Apparently, the next day they offered to fly him back to join the cruise at the next port, but Dr. Kruse declined. In the meantime, the FBI has been trying to find out who the "Lance" person is who made the warning call, including attempting to find the person who tweeted the parody tweets in case they have leads on "Lance". If you have information on the matter, we can give you the agent's contact info.

For the record, I called the agent and left a VM volunteering my help, as did other PaleoHacks mods.

Why even bother mentioning this?

This is a far cry from the picture Dr. Kruse is painting, which is that he has fed the FBI a list of his critics, major paleo leaders from Boston, Chicago, and NY and that they have traced IPs and may put the people involved in jail for twenty years. The FBI has not subpoenaed the SKS twitter account yet, so there are no IPs in question to talk about.

Kevin Cottrell, an organizer of PaleoFX, has written (very hysterically): "Let's see if Paleohacks is even standing after this investigation."

*sigh *facepalm *shaking of my head at the inanity of it all *double facepalm

PaleoHacks is not under investigation, the FBI is not coming for anyone, and while what happened to Dr. Kruse was terrible, it is unfortunate he is using it to threaten and scare people. And in fact, this says a lot about Kruse himself. C'est la vie.

The FBI also was not aware of the TedX talk that that SKS tweet was parodying and PaleoHacks mods informed them.

In light of these events, we have closed and deleted several threads that were either accusing Paleohacks of being behind the controversy or would have been a nightmare to moderate.

Let me absolutely crystal clear: PaleoHacks has been more than fair with the disturbance that Kruse is on this forum. There is NO conspiracy against Kruse. <---- Read this again.

If you would like to talk about the Quilt protocols and about this matter, we suggest going to his new forum. As far as the matter of what really happened, we think it best to let the FBI to handle the case and not speculate.

Those of you being completely awesome, keep at it. Those of you not so awesome, pay attention to the awesome people and you might learn a few things.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

A parody is an attack now? Can't wait to tell the Secret Service about SNL.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

Remember when the big controversy was about Gary Taubes cutting in front of Aravind to ask pointed questions to Stephan Guyenet? That was some strawberry shortcake shit compared to this. Back then, MRSA was not associated with paleo, and even my dear mother was able to understand the posts written by leading paleo gurus.

8fbbf720caae616b07d3a8a12e59093f

(56)

on May 17, 2012
at 07:17 AM

Evelyn, that was a direct quote from his blog; I posted the link in my second "comment" and seen here: http://jackkruse.com/ct-12-getting-back-on-board-with-my-message/

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 16, 2012
at 05:26 AM

I got downvoted for not wanting a leader! LOL

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 16, 2012
at 12:26 AM

In all seriousness, why is the subject even still welcome at PH after making such serious - and public - insinuations about some of the major personalities? Even The Jimmer sent zero-carber Charles Washington packing from his forum once he could no longer stand by his message.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 16, 2012
at 12:21 AM

More drama! Paleo gets boring with all the science-y stuff.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 14, 2012
at 04:50 PM

I don't follow anybodies blog but I occasionally end up on one after a Google search of a topic or from following a link. I really don't take that much interest in any of these people. Not even "The Leaders" LOL

E7320c552ab7453d2ff45d4be79f6b50

on May 14, 2012
at 01:47 PM

Also Evelyn, I tried to post a comment on your blog about that issue, but I couldn't figure out how to do it, and I didn't have time to mess with it a great deal. I am blonde you know! :-)

E7320c552ab7453d2ff45d4be79f6b50

on May 14, 2012
at 01:41 PM

I'm not sure that was my "big mistake" Evelyn, considering that I'm not the person in question here. I am sorry that happened. At the end of the day, I'm just trying to support my family, and writing articles for Paleo Diet News is a way to supplement my income. I didn't mean you any harm.....infact, I've always agreed with your point of view. I honestly didn't know that what I did was wrong, and I was floored that you went on the attack in the manor that you did. I had thought that you and I could have united in our opinions, but that seems lost now. I'm not the enemy, ask Kamal Patel.

24fcc21452ebe39c032be6801d6bbadd

(9812)

on May 14, 2012
at 01:04 PM

I'd read Eenfeldt's post via his facebook page and was really disappointed by the gossip-mag-vibe of it; I left a link to this PH thread on the facebook comments.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41767)

on May 14, 2012
at 12:45 PM

Maybe it's time to close this. What needed to be said has been said, and rehashed ad absurdum. This only serves to let people stir the pot, which doesn't seem all that productive.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 14, 2012
at 10:13 AM

Ahhh, Thanks Carly. @Anonymous Chump: Yeah I got sucked in for a bit, but I can't continue. I don't have time for mind games. His comments did bring out the "hammer" from Jack that pretty much lays this to rest.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41767)

on May 12, 2012
at 01:20 PM

You can tell a self-appointed leader from their inflated sense of self-worth. :) The paleo blogosphere is full of folks who think they're the true defender of all things paleo.

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on May 12, 2012
at 11:59 AM

Evelyn, he said this in his fb page, if you search for the "Dr Jack Kruse" page, he has said a lot of stuff over there. He appears to have deleted it all.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 12, 2012
at 11:02 AM

Your big mistake was C&P'ing entire posts from my blog and posting them on that paleo news site with the "like this article" and "for more info" directing to your website. Pretty sleazy. Let Lila take the fall for that too, Barry. Man up and own up.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 12, 2012
at 10:57 AM

Paula, where are these Jack Says coming from? His forum?

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 12, 2012
at 10:38 AM

PV: The threat of a suit is more powerful as a means to silence people.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 12, 2012
at 10:33 AM

"Cold thermogenesis" according to Jack. Cold therapy to most of the rest of the world who's been using it for, like, forever.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 12, 2012
at 07:12 AM

Is CT "Cold therapy" or something like that?

D8a7a162b686e8dc8fab6ea1eda3b6aa

(30)

on May 12, 2012
at 02:57 AM

Apparently not. Agent Baker really did actually say that to me. :(

4e71477b1b79dfbe3aa9d6fcbc6aa859

on May 12, 2012
at 02:49 AM

So, Paleo Cafe I am guessing our "Paleo representatives" weren't really impressing them much...outstanding!

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on May 11, 2012
at 07:15 PM

I think the dynamite was more a "prop" than a rhetorical device - here is a picture of Kruse with the prop - http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2012/03/paleofx/

24fcc21452ebe39c032be6801d6bbadd

(9812)

on May 11, 2012
at 12:54 PM

Very true Katherine; a lot of folks have lost sight of that.

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on May 11, 2012
at 12:10 AM

Great summary, Dr. D! Paleo nutrition became 'true' over a few million years... Don't stress about who is fighting to be alpha-attention-hog this week or year, the basics will remain the same for years... Many, many, many years.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 10, 2012
at 11:59 PM

That was disingenuous and strawman, Patrik, and you know it. And this is where the culture of PH originates. "Illegal" and "liability" are not the same thing, so stop putting words in other peoples' mouths. Please delete my account. I've asked for this before.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:24 PM

@edrice - so PaleoHacks isn't a "festering ground for this kind of hatred" but even it were, that isn't illegal. Anyhow "thanks for your "advice". Feel free to start a forum of "non-hatred" of your own and moderate it as you see fit.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:20 PM

@edrice -- nice veiled threats of "slander". Good work buddy. Way to raise the level of discourse. For the record, no one I know of (except maybe for the "Lance" whomever they are) is running scared of the FBI...b/c no crime was committed, contrary to you/Kruse.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 10, 2012
at 09:16 PM

I just know that if something like this ever happened to me, I'd be madder than a hornet and legally bring the full weight of something on somebody. If they do find out who did this and can in any way connect it back as a contributor to PH and it could be shown that PH was so loosely run that it was festering ground for this kind of hatred, there could be some potential liability issues. I just think the PH crew is a little naive in some worldly matters and needs to tighten up a bit and do some housecleaning.

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 10, 2012
at 09:04 PM

Hey, Robb, you got a badge for this post! Congratulations!

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 10, 2012
at 08:05 PM

No one is scared of the FBI. I was rather annoyed that someone would say that they are coming to put me in jail, but no one actually believed that would happen. I talked to them because I was curious.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 10, 2012
at 07:49 PM

I mean, unless there's enough evidence pointing to the 'perpetrators' on the face of his complaint, the suit will get dropped. I think that's usually how it works. You can't just sue without meeting some initial burden of proof.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 10, 2012
at 07:48 PM

Shari, he can file a civil law suit, but against whom? If the FBI/other authorities do not continue the investigation on criminal charges (they wouldn't be involved in a civil case) then Jack would probably have to prove in court who the perpetrators are, which sounds like it will be pretty hard to do unless he hires a P.I. Or am I missing something?

8fbbf720caae616b07d3a8a12e59093f

(56)

on May 10, 2012
at 07:16 PM

I'm at the edge of my seat waiting for Studio B to mangle the story

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 10, 2012
at 07:14 PM

There are ways to disagree in a more mature and eloquent fashion. There is no need for all the drama and inflated egos.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 10, 2012
at 07:11 PM

I don't usually get so involved in any of this but it did seem like an oppotunity to attempt to raise the level of discourse in PH. Jus' sayin'

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 10, 2012
at 06:59 PM

Your statement about Kruse may be an uncomfortable statement of fact (and it's true for any of us), but given the context that the statement was made in gives it a rather consenting appearance. Context is everything.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 10, 2012
at 06:59 PM

I never made the claim anywhere that Kruse olds no responsibility for what has happened to him. But in the event PH or members are investigated because there's slander all over it, who holds that responsibility? We all make our own beds and now some of the culprits are yelling, "Who, me!?" Maybe Kruse should clam up but I can think of others that would do well to follow that advice.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 10, 2012
at 06:58 PM

Patrik, my post had nothing to do with your objectivity about Kruse. I think you have been fair with him when you disagreed so that's not the point. My point is that all this slander has been allowed to run rampant on this forum and now look what's happened! Everybody's running around scared to death of the FBI. This is the real adult world and it's been like a bunch of kids in here recklessly shooting off their mouths expecting no repercussions.

C145035bde13d07121c54da046128cc1

(1549)

on May 10, 2012
at 06:05 PM

Jeff- thanks for clarifying that...it honestly hurt my feelings a good bit. I do my best to operate sans ego and do the best for the collective...funny for a Libertarian! It's tough sometimes, you can say 1 million things that are right, and get kicked in the balls pretty good for one foible. Anyway, thanks man.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on May 10, 2012
at 05:55 PM

Last last thing -- Kruse's witchhunt and enthusiasm for being a martyr should give all of his disciples pause as I and RW have pointed out.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on May 10, 2012
at 05:53 PM

Lastly, your claim that Kruse holds no responsibility for what has happened to him is ridiculous. Kruse is decisive and polarizing figure on PH, on his blog, on twitter, and elsewhere ---- many people have counseled me to simply delete him from PaleoHacks, which I would well within my rights to do -- but I haven't as long as he plays by the rules, which, right now, he seems to barely contain himself within.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on May 10, 2012
at 05:50 PM

edrice has some interesting points. 1) wrt ad hominem, we do miss too many, especially if folks don't flag them. 1a) my comment about Kruse is an uncomfortable statement of fact, sorry -- I have DEFENDED Kruse multiple times on PH even when I vehemently disagreed with him 2) This thread exists b/c Kruse "fomented" this hysteria. He could have clammed up (as Robb Wolf suggested) and we wouldn't have a need for this set-the-record-straight post. 3) All forums have challenges, this one has plenty. I don't agree with the call for non-anonymity - I think it is wrong-headed.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on May 10, 2012
at 05:19 PM

Many users have been deleted. But deleting is something we must be careful about, because deleted users often come back with different names and different email addresses and use different IPs -- and want revenge. There is only so much that laws and moderation can do; when a culture changes, a culture changes.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 10, 2012
at 05:01 PM

As for moderation issues, we are significantly hampered by Stack Exchange's decision to deprecate sites like this, so we have no access to any type of software upgrade. We couldn't remove anonymity if we wanted to. We can't even keep anyone from editing this mod post!

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 10, 2012
at 05:01 PM

I wish we could go back to the arguing about Taubes days. Taubes has several well-written works with real scientific references to argue about. Furthermore, while he was a little rude at AHS, he is nothing compared to Kruse. He handled his own LC cruise situation with eminent grace, so much so that no one has really been talking about it.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 10, 2012
at 01:55 PM

Please don't edit posts by mods. It's not appropriate.

C98a4de749025bb18463c1fda764e81c

(148)

on May 10, 2012
at 11:33 AM

I'm no lawyer but should he seek legal action I recommend you follow the precedent set in the case of Arkell vs. Pressdram. http://www.nasw.org/users/nbauman/arkell.htm

8fbbf720caae616b07d3a8a12e59093f

(56)

on May 10, 2012
at 06:04 AM

^^ http://jackkruse.com/ct-12-getting-back-on-board-with-my-message/ ^^

8fbbf720caae616b07d3a8a12e59093f

(56)

on May 10, 2012
at 06:04 AM

^^ http://jackkruse.com/ct-12-getting-back-on-board-with-my-message/ ^^

8fbbf720caae616b07d3a8a12e59093f

(56)

on May 10, 2012
at 06:03 AM

^ http://jackkruse.com/ct-12-getting-back-on-board-with-my-message/

8fbbf720caae616b07d3a8a12e59093f

(56)

on May 10, 2012
at 05:59 AM

Posterity! I'm here for *that*! And a little news: Jack Says: May 9th, 2012 at 7:55 pm @Zorica I’m over it…….but the perpetrators plight has just begun

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on May 10, 2012
at 04:12 AM

Robb, I'm sorry you were offended by the fish oil comment. I did not mean for it to be a jab at you but rather to point out the benefit of a site like this having divergent views. By no means is everything you say held in contempt. On the contrary, I think you may have gained even more respect by modifying viewpoints.

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on May 10, 2012
at 02:09 AM

this is awesome, but i do hope you continue to help people Robb. You have made an impact in Mississippi of all places, i got so many guys on board listening to your podcasts while they work i do not think you even understand how epically HUGE that is for such a place to have big ol southern boys psyched for your WOD, your latest podcast etc. really, keep at it, youre great!

016de26fe61daf799662d3b7b2468324

(678)

on May 10, 2012
at 01:55 AM

I often feel like it's Season 8 of All My Paleos and I've just tuned in. I mostly have no idea about Jack Kruse and such goings on (and the more I read, the less I know) but I do enjoy the drama. I don't have access to any telenovelas living in India so this site provides mucho entertainment - thanks for keeping it interesting. Carry on.

016de26fe61daf799662d3b7b2468324

(678)

on May 10, 2012
at 01:45 AM

Brittany Spears is going to be a new judge! Wait a minute, wrong show.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 10, 2012
at 01:03 AM

No Jack with the help and support of Kevin Cottrell is, According to Jack and Kevin both, planning a huge civil lawsuit against the perpetrators. Of course the suit would be without merit but since when do those two care about merit or fact? Allegedly. Yes they seem to having quite a grand time with is so we can expect to see this thing drag on into next year I'm quite sure. Poor Jack. No really. Very pore Jack. I've never run across anyone so clearly devoid of any riches. It's quite sad really.

A97b68379a576dfa764a4828304d2efb

(4176)

on May 10, 2012
at 01:02 AM

I bet all the paleo folks they interviewed looked like the sleek and sexy cast from a heist movie. "I will chill... I will NOT take the candy bar."

5a506bcfafe352e8fe11ebac285aa3e4

on May 10, 2012
at 12:11 AM

The agent I spoke to was fat.

D8a7a162b686e8dc8fab6ea1eda3b6aa

(30)

on May 09, 2012
at 11:40 PM

The agent whom I spoke with suggested we all get a candy bar and a soda and "chill".

59fa7cd87fb9d669adf21e5cf3e7ada5

on May 09, 2012
at 11:28 PM

Amend, I owe so much to Paleo that I can't even begin to make a list. In the winter of 2005 We were hungry, just barely alive By May the 10th, my LDL had fell It's a time I remember, oh so well The night they drove old Paleo down And the bells were ringing The night they drove old Paleo down And the people were singing They went, "Na, na, la, na, na, la" Everybody sing along!

792634a784ec6a636c3137d0903e11b4

(1196)

on May 09, 2012
at 11:26 PM

I agree. I'd stop there but I needed more characters to get the comment submitted ;).

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 09, 2012
at 11:12 PM

Laina, I don't think HIPAA applies to PH. All information shared here is voluntary. If PH went with full disclosure, then people uncomfortable with that simply wouldn't partake. Problem solved.

15d83f76aaa6b0e38d662c20c6e097ad

(1012)

on May 09, 2012
at 10:34 PM

Robb, you are by far the best of the best!! Keep being awesome, the raw grass-fed cream always rises to the top, and you Sir, are on top! Congrats again to you and your beautiful family!! Zoe has a super dad!!

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 09, 2012
at 10:24 PM

I wonder if the FBI, or any authority, will do anything at all on this or even continue the search for the tweeter and caller. I think it's probably pretty low priority and unless Kruse is pressing charges, not sure there is motivation to spend resources on furthering the investigation. So the world may never know...That's TOTAL speculation, maybe someone with more experience can weigh in.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 09, 2012
at 10:19 PM

"Chuck Norris’ Tears." LOL.

A2fe5bbd09c7804fd321e9e9a9f9d199

(1614)

on May 09, 2012
at 09:57 PM

A more general observation: Blog comments, forums, discussion boards... the format does cultivate things like e-terrorism (unjustified damage via words) as it is. The potential for information exchange is always there, but personality types get people attacking one another on the unrelated personal dimension. It's a method of "bending the narrative" of the information exchange in one's favor, as a matter of form rather than substance. To win over the hypothetical watchers. So, performance will always be a part of even this science-derived movement as long as it gets aired out on the Internet.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 09, 2012
at 09:55 PM

But what exactly was "done to Jack"? Giving him the benefit of the doubt that he is not the one behind this whole thing (which is very much in doubt IMO) then yes he was clearly inconvenienced. But I fail to see how he has suffered anything beyond that. It actually looks to me that he is benefiting wildly from the drama. God knows he's milked it to within an inch of its life. The FBI doesn't consider the SKS twitter account to have been threat. It was clearly a parody. They don't seem to care much about it at any rate So again what horrible thing has been done to poor Jack?

A2fe5bbd09c7804fd321e9e9a9f9d199

(1614)

on May 09, 2012
at 09:53 PM

Yep, that about sums it up. I wonder if Dr Kruse was advised beforehand not to go public with insinuating certain individuals as potential suspects (thinking that only those in the know would read between the lines). Yes he should have clammed up and cooled off before going public about unknowns like that, it just seems common sense. I presume anger got the better of him, and now he's coming across as a perpetrator of drama though he didn't start all this.

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 09, 2012
at 09:35 PM

Evelyn, I really believe that Nikoley is posting at you only because he knows you'll reply. I've never seen a blogger talk about the number of comments or the number of page hits as that guy. You're just a way to bloat the comment count. I don't know what he gets out of bragging about his numbers, but he clearly gets something.

Db324bd4457587115e48afcd243b00d3

(80)

on May 09, 2012
at 09:26 PM

I disagree Barry. The original premise of Paleo is to follow the science...even when that flies in the face of mainstream perception. But with everything else you are spot on

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on May 09, 2012
at 09:06 PM

This is so not how I expected the run-up to AHS12 to be after AHS11. #gangcolorsanyone

183f5c49a7a9548b6f5238d1f33cb35e

(1716)

on May 09, 2012
at 09:04 PM

Yeah I'm just amazed at how much energy some folks put into being mean :(

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on May 09, 2012
at 08:50 PM

Bless you, Robb for saying anything at all and what you have said is very well said. Thank you and congratulations on your beautiful little girl.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 09, 2012
at 08:28 PM

Oh poor poor wildwabbit. Wake up and smell the coffee OK? I have not been contacted by the FBI. Now go back and rewatch the channel 5 account (I'll be embedding it in a post tomorrow if you don't have a link) it's all Jack said this and Jack said that. If the FBI actually IS still on this, it's not to track down "those behind the mysterious tweet".

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 09, 2012
at 08:24 PM

Enjoy Zoe Robb! I think Jack's actions are far more f'ed up than anything SUPPOSEDLY done by SJS or "Lance" here. There is only one "official account" here. Jack's. FBI no comment. Carnival no comment (to reputable news site). The story keeps changing. Now Lance was an emailer not a caller. I don't take Jack's calling me a ring leader lightly, and as of now, I've still yet to be contacted by the FBI. People should please (not need to but please) speak out against the intimidation tactics of Jack Kruse and Dick Nikoley. JMO. Again, enjoy that new baby!!

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on May 09, 2012
at 08:16 PM

It is depressing.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18676)

on May 09, 2012
at 08:07 PM

"Credibility gone." I find it hilarious / sad that anyone ever thought Jack Kruse had credibility.

3f5bbb444498a24f1a9720d75fa7c903

(2369)

on May 09, 2012
at 08:00 PM

Thankfully, sanity at last.

F00e022ce184879578d0829d8d09a85d

(169)

on May 09, 2012
at 07:57 PM

Now its an email that set it off not a phone call. What's next? http://travel.usatoday.com/cruises/story/2012-05-09/Diet-guru-booted-from-Carnival-ship-over-fake-tweet/54849710/1

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on May 09, 2012
at 07:55 PM

Thanks for posting Robb, get some rest and take care of that newborn. Congratulations.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on May 09, 2012
at 07:55 PM

1) There were a good number of paleo heavies following that twitter account and everyone was in on the joke. 2) 95% of the content were quotes by Kruse IN QUOTATIONS. the stuff that wasn't was not quoted. 3) Kruse started trying to track down who was behind the account over a week ago. I'm really sorry that his own quotes coming back at him made him embarassed. 4)As far as hating Kruse goes, I don't hate him, I just believed from the beginning that type of person who was clearly ambitious inside o f the community and dishing out questionable advice was bad for the community.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 09, 2012
at 07:52 PM

By the way-- collecting names from the freetheanimal megathread of those that disagreed with Kruse, and feeding those names to the FBI? That is [email protected] up.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 09, 2012
at 07:50 PM

Thank you for posting, Robb. Cold baths are great, hot saunas are great, and talking about science is great. No one owns these things. When I saw a long series of threatening tweets, it seemed quite thuggish. When Keith Norris tweeted about McCarthyism, it all started making sense. Negativity sucks, egotism sucks, and kitties are great. Let's get back to positive programming, for the sake of our poor cats who want to be petted while we're reading the latest news piece from cruiselinecontroversies.com (not a real website!).

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 09, 2012
at 07:40 PM

Thank you for that info Michelle. Very good to know. VERY good to know.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on May 09, 2012
at 07:37 PM

Here, here! I will say that SKS was a parody account and blatantly so. It was funny and it will be missed. The call and the account likely are unlinked. The caller is the only one at fault.

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on May 09, 2012
at 07:36 PM

MY thanks to you, Robb, for being an voice for sanity. Enjoy the time with your new child!

4e71477b1b79dfbe3aa9d6fcbc6aa859

on May 09, 2012
at 07:31 PM

The partners of Paleo FX, LLC would like to state for the record Kevin Cottrell is no longer a member of the Paleo FX, LLC partnership and therefore is acting and speaking of his own accord. His opinions written or expressed do not represent Paleo FX, LLC or the partnership of Paleo FX, LLC.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 09, 2012
at 07:25 PM

http://twitter.com/#!/kevincottrell/status/199807599280005120

193b7fb0fec8913d5ebb3b99a04d21c6

(2918)

on May 09, 2012
at 05:48 PM

Not allowing people to remain anonymous on a health forum is actually a HIPAA violation. In other words, your personal health information should be personal and protected because it can be used against you in many ways.

F00e022ce184879578d0829d8d09a85d

(169)

on May 09, 2012
at 05:47 PM

If anything Kruse is a great example to be more skeptical of anyone claiming to have the inside scoop on diet/exercise and trying to align themselves with a certain movement. From what I have read of late he is now changing his tune, which makes it look like he only used Paleo & LC to get his name out. Another Kimmer? More than likely. Better yet another self serving a**hole. http://jackkruse.com/ct-12-getting-back-on-board-with-my-message/

F00e022ce184879578d0829d8d09a85d

(169)

on May 09, 2012
at 05:40 PM

It is your right and more people need to exercise it. I do and get called names for it, but I wont stop. Obviously neither will you. Kudos for that!!

F00e022ce184879578d0829d8d09a85d

(169)

on May 09, 2012
at 05:38 PM

Speaking of screws: http://www.aansneurosurgeon.org/210112/8/1210

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 09, 2012
at 05:31 PM

@Melissa, no one gets a free pass. We see it and we don't like it, but we don't have to repeat it to defeat it. Trust in people to judge on substance (it's the reason I love many of your posts). There will always be Kool-aid drinkers.

15d83f76aaa6b0e38d662c20c6e097ad

(1012)

on May 09, 2012
at 04:27 PM

The crime is the call...not the twitter acct.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 09, 2012
at 04:22 PM

Adam, you should certainly thank Patrick for all these upvotes.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on May 09, 2012
at 03:57 PM

aside from the fact that I completely disagree, phasing out anonymity is impossible. I can claim whatever I want, and short of being a "known" or "public" figure, or being under real investigation, people would never be able to ascertain whether I am real or bogus. There are 50 zillion images online of people's faces and identity. I could mix a few and commandeer any of them at any time. That's why the old saying... "be careful where you get your info" is such a cliche... because it's very good advice. Discernment is invaluable.

870fdea50f2a9f1cd2890c8e22549300

(2056)

on May 09, 2012
at 03:11 PM

Honestly, who needs reality TV when actual unstaged reality is so bizarre at times.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 09, 2012
at 02:52 PM

+1 for calling a vulture a vulture. I think this is at the core of my issue with all of this. People being taken advantage of. People being hurt. I say screw that!

24fcc21452ebe39c032be6801d6bbadd

(9812)

on May 09, 2012
at 02:44 PM

True- lots of good people in the community, but also a lot with big brains and bigger egos. Very disappointing to see all the nastiness and attempted intimidation surrounding this situation, but I guess I wasn't surprised; I've been seeing stuff deteriorate for awhile. Just gotta keep eating good food and hanging with the friendly folks!

F00e022ce184879578d0829d8d09a85d

(169)

on May 09, 2012
at 01:42 PM

It wouldn't surprise me if he did. Scam artists have been around ever since there was something of value to take from others. Everyone lies, some just go to greater lengths & do more damage. I have no desire to do that as does the majority of the world. Life is tough enough without having to deal with vultures. Which is why I will call "BS" if I smell something. People don't like it and I get called a "hater" or an "evil person", but I can live with that. I would rather say something than sit on my duff & watch people take it in the rump. It makes me mad to watch others get taken advantage of.

8292546789ca48c32ead34c6e884d059

on May 09, 2012
at 01:10 PM

A lot of people get fired for or do not get jobs because of their online activities. What if my next boss is a vegan?

A97b68379a576dfa764a4828304d2efb

(4176)

on May 09, 2012
at 12:55 PM

Ha. Yeah, I am sure the official report on this one would be entertaining to read. "A small community of saturated fat enthusiasts turned volatile last week; meat is the suspected culprit. The China Study is willing to offer testimony against meat in exchange for permanent subsidization of all soy and corn products."

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on May 09, 2012
at 11:03 AM

The FBI confirmed no IPs were given to Kruse.

3b0b95dfc6dc5c18e535945f4aab0866

(2392)

on May 09, 2012
at 10:14 AM

Evelyn, leave it to you to imply overwhelming commercial self-interests as a major factor in what is going on here.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 09, 2012
at 09:55 AM

@Joe: He's lying to you and everyone. I know this because he claims that the IP's came from NY, Chicago and Boston. Well as NY here, I know none of those tweets were mine, and the FBI has not contacted me. It's now Wed. morning and still nothing.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 09, 2012
at 09:07 AM

The agent I spoke to seemed less than enthusiastic.

Ca2c940a1947e6200883908592956680

(8574)

on May 09, 2012
at 08:33 AM

Off Kruse's site: "In closing this talk/blog, I want to let you know I have a webinar scheduled for May 19th where I will be exposing what Factor X is and how it causes a sped up epigenetic program in modern humans. Seating is limited to 100 and only 25 seats remain."

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on May 09, 2012
at 08:24 AM

If I were in his shoes I certainly wouldn't be behaving in the manner he is, claiming the FBI are feeding him info they are not, and accusing innocent people. He has his big giant wooden spoon out in all this and is stirring it big time.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 09, 2012
at 08:23 AM

He didn't earn the special morbid obesity badge.

6ec8d30130a6fb274871314533b5536b

(581)

on May 09, 2012
at 08:23 AM

Well, TWitter and a phone call.

6ec8d30130a6fb274871314533b5536b

(581)

on May 09, 2012
at 08:23 AM

While I might not mind discussing my health issues, etc... on here, a lot of people do. There are some people who don't want their personal body/mind/diet/etc... issues to tie directly to their real-life identity. I don't mind the anonymity. And charging for accounts? Ridiculous. I don't even have the money for an all grass-fed diet as it is. -___- Besides, the trolling happened on TWITTER, not Paleohacks...

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on May 09, 2012
at 08:22 AM

I think the "shitshow" tag is one of my favourites.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 09, 2012
at 05:05 AM

Hey, what is it with the disappearing comments? PH = strange place sometimes!

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on May 09, 2012
at 04:33 AM

LOL ringleader. He likes to sound important I guess.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 09, 2012
at 04:32 AM

LOL! That's exactly it! He's Kimmer!!! I'm howling. And yes many spoke up but they were shut down. That were labeled "haters". Uh huh. And this is what happens when good people sit back and do nothing. When the leaders refuse to lead well this is what you get.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 09, 2012
at 04:15 AM

Just hope he doesn't become the Kimmer of paleo. Kurt Harris tried to sound the warning. No one (mostly) listened.

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on May 09, 2012
at 01:59 AM

But Taubes was fat and lost weight on Atkins. Does Quilty not know this? I think it was like 30-40 pounds, but I can't find the URL right now. Surely someone else here has it?

C56baa1b4f39839c018180bf63226f7d

(3499)

on May 09, 2012
at 01:50 AM

Not that I've been on a cruise, but it seems to me that food is usually one of the selling points.

9f54852ea376e8e416356f547611e052

(2957)

on May 09, 2012
at 01:33 AM

lol Americans are funny.

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 09, 2012
at 01:32 AM

I looked on Kruse's blog to see his reaction to all this mess and ..... I kid you not..... he said that he tried to talk to the Galveston police about getting going on cold thermogenises.

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 09, 2012
at 01:27 AM

Michelangelo’s David is the inspiration behind the Holy Trinity?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 09, 2012
at 01:18 AM

It's weird how people are so sensitive to calling out ad hominems when they think it's Kruse under attack, but I guess he gets a free pass? I mean you can't get more ad hominem than saying your ideas are more valid than another person's ideas because you were fat and they weren't. Either way, it's sad he didn't get to be on the ship, because the LC cruise was where he belonged.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14932)

on May 09, 2012
at 01:11 AM

IDK but between this and Nikoley tweeting in regards to it, paleo seems to be drowning in assholes.

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on May 09, 2012
at 12:40 AM

The irony? The parody wasn't too far from the real, actual crazy behavior in which he has engaged.

306aa57660d911781231f8090c2a5619

(3808)

on May 09, 2012
at 12:26 AM

See also http://blog.disqus.com/post/15638234811/pseudonyms - the Disqus discussion platform found that those with registered pseudonyms (and therefore, a consistent, though anonymous, identity) made the highest quality comments.

306aa57660d911781231f8090c2a5619

(3808)

on May 09, 2012
at 12:01 AM

Phasing out anonymity will kill participation from all those who don't want their every non-SAD opinion easily googleable by anyone for any reason. This especially includes people educated in sciences, whose viewpoints are incredibly valuable, and whose careers are most likely to be negatively impacted by publicly discussing nonstandard dietary views. It will also limit people's willingness to discuss sensitive topics (their pooping habits, moods, etc.) which are so vitally important to have in the open when discussing diet.

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on May 08, 2012
at 11:54 PM

I disagree that anonymity is the problem. I suggested in another meta thread to consider something like Metafilter does: charge a very small fee to get an account that requires mailing the money by postal mail. It introduces just enough hassle and waiting period to discourage people joining just to be trolling jerks. Also, limiting posting until a certain level of __ is reached. Both of these techniques work with anonymity.

1eeaff4097f33330456dc8c17904e1d8

on May 08, 2012
at 11:38 PM

Wow. That's one of the stupidest incidents I've heard of recently. Even given the overarching stupidity of most criminals, the whole thing is flat-out retarded.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 10:36 PM

also, I should clarify and say that just because something is objectively foreseeable, doesn't mean the tweeter actually did foresee it and intentionally acted anyway. Foreseeable is different than intentional. I believe this tweeter did not intend for all of this fallout to occur.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 10:31 PM

@Melissa, as I've expressed, I think the tweet was irresponsible because it's foreseeable that this would happen. Sounds like normally the tweets were mostly things JK himself had said, and this tweet deviated from that pattern.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 10:29 PM

@Shah, people report this stuff all the time. I've never done it, but I think we all know that people do it, it's in the news constantly. It's why no one jokes about bombs when their in an airport. PAs are constantly instructing people to be overly cautious. The Cruise Line and the police saw enough merit to investigate after the report was made. So there's a chain reaction happening here and there was enough momentum to keep it going.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on May 08, 2012
at 10:29 PM

Kruse's "Galveston incident" has nothing what so ever to do with paleohacks nor the anonymity of paleohacks users.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 08, 2012
at 10:27 PM

I don't think they attacked Kruse. That tweet was a parody. The person who called Carnival turned it into an attack.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 10:25 PM

@Melissa, I think we're getting caught up in terms. Maybe "attack" is too loose of term for this conversation. It's an attack in the sense that all parodies are attacks on something in that they point out flaws or failures. Unfortunately, the twitter account did end up attacking Kruse, in a very literal way, though I gather unintentionally and without forethought as to the possibility that someone might take a bio-threat joke seriously.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 08, 2012
at 10:22 PM

Of course, these are the same people who call the FBI. (Edit)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 08, 2012
at 10:20 PM

urse these ar e the same people who call the FBI. Personally, I' ve never considered calling the FBI. Has anyone else ever considered calling the FBI or actually called the FBI?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 08, 2012
at 10:17 PM

Yes, Melisa!Evidently some people have never seen SNL. It only been on since 1975! :)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 08, 2012
at 10:15 PM

I agree with PaleoVenus. Somebody wanted to shame me for wanting to exhume Bill Rhenquist's copse to be the judge at Jack's "paleowold "excommication trial".This was in the context of me writing an earlier "rocking"defense of Jack!!!!! Do not ever, and I mean ever, underestimate the ability of ONE PERSON to misunderstand sarcasm.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:44 PM

@Shari, i agree, there are a lot of valid critiques Kruse's theories/work, but most (not all) of what i've read has been ad hominem. It's not a scientific breakdown, just what i've happened to get exposure to since I've joined the site. My perspective is limited and only valuable in that I represent an outsider looking in on this controversy. As I said, i didn't follow the account, but it's existence is, in and of itself, an attack on him, even if it is an accurate one. If people want to laugh at him, I won't evaluate the merits of that. Satire is a powerful tool for exposing truth.

Da8e709acde269e8b8bfbc09d1737841

(1906)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:42 PM

I'm not sure if this post does much more than perpetuate the gossip. As an aside, authorities don't need an IP to subpoena Twitter. That's what the Subpoena would help identify.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:38 PM

@Amerindian, to clarify, I did not reduce all that has been said of Kruse to ad hominem, I pointed out that a lot of what is said about Kruse here is ad hominem and I find that to be uncharacteristic of the things I enjoy about paleohacks. I did not follow the SKS twitter account, so i am not in a position to comment on it beyond what i have expressed about my surprise that such a twitter account should even exist. Again, I think it's foreseeable that someone would see that tweet and report it. There are examples of such inanity in the news everyday re: airport security.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:38 PM

And far too many of the valid critiques and criticisms are being swept into the ad hominem category when they are anything but that. And yes the twitter account was funny and a parody and interestingly enough 95% of it was crap that came out of Jack's own mouth. Stuff he has said or written himself in public. How is that some attack on him?

34b560c8b9ce660d7839fb7e29d7be89

on May 08, 2012
at 09:33 PM

Ad hominem is a weak form of argument but it isn't as though numerous, valid critiques of his work haven't also been made. To reduce all that has been said of him, here and elsewhere, to "bashing" is also a bit of a weak arguement, ie-straw man. SKS twitter account is satire and the post in question is a parody that is in the same vein as actual statements made by the man himself, publicly. The issue is that someone made a phone call insinuating that it was real and taking it out of context, not in the spirit of the actual tweet.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:18 PM

@Patrik, I wouldn't know, but I suspect you are right based on what others have posted about Kruse and the lack of such ad hominem commentary on Sisson, Harris and Nikoley. As well as the fact that there is a twitter feed dedicated to making fun of him. But that doesn't change my discomfort with the ad hominem attacks and the fake bio-threat.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41767)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:17 PM

Quilt is only a big deal here because he actually was active here. Everybody else doesn't give a shit about PH...

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:16 PM

Whatever the various opinions on Kruse may be, it is clear that any discussion of him -- whether it is about his personality or his science or some combination of the two -- cannot be sustained for very long without people getting upset at each other. Yesterday (just coincidentally the day before the Carnaval incident) I decided to delete one Kruse thread and close another. Some are "anti" and some are "pro." In the future I (we) will be very quick to close and delete threads about Kruse just to avoid the chaos that always seems to follow, unless I hear otherwise from Patrik.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:13 PM

@Patrik, I wouldn't know, but I suspect you are right based on what others have posted about Kruse and the lack of such ad hominem commentary on Sisson, Harris and Nikoley.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:11 PM

@PaleoVenus -- Sisson, Harris, and Nikoley are NOTHING like Kruse. Nothing.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:10 PM

@Patrik, I don't think he is a victim. I think many people find him inflammatory (to use a word) and attack his personal character. They might be right about him.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:07 PM

(cont'd) Perhaps it's fairer to say he is polarizing, but so are Sisson, Harris, Nikoley, and others and I haven't seen entire posts dedicated to their personal character/history or professional life. I think the attacks on Kruse are much more ad hominem than substantive.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:07 PM

@PaleoVenus --- Kruse is a victim of himself.

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:06 PM

Thanks to Patrik for clearing the air!

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:06 PM

Perhaps it's fairer to say he is polarizing, but so are Sisson, Harris, Nikoley, and others and I haven't seen entire posts dedicated to their personal character/history or professional life. I think the attacks on Kruse are much more ad hominem.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:04 PM

He pulled a good part of his following from here. Why he doesn't like this place is for one reason only. This was the ONLY major site in the paleosphere that dared even ATTEMPT to vet this man.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:02 PM

Hi Melissa, I'm relatively new here, and this may only be a pattern as of late, but I think I've read about 8 posts about Kruse and of those, about 6 were dedicated to evaluating his character and full of negative comments about the person he is and the nonsensical things he says. In fairness, and to the credit of the mods, I think some were deleted. As a newbie, I immediately got the impression that Kruse was not well-respected around these parts because I don't see these types of posts about any of the other paleo gurus. (cont'd)

A2fe5bbd09c7804fd321e9e9a9f9d199

(1614)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:00 PM

If I were in his shoes I wouldn't be jumping on a last second offer to go back on as scheduled and pretend as if nothing had happened. It's too much to deal with at once.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 08, 2012
at 08:57 PM

Thank you Patrick and the other moderators. It's so nice to find even a bit of sanity right now regarding this debacle.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 08, 2012
at 08:54 PM

How is he an outcast here? He's one of the top-scoring users?

7e1433afbb06c318c4d90860d493c49d

(5959)

on May 08, 2012
at 08:36 PM

Yeah, refusing the offer to return to the boat was a huge FU to the people on the cruise. As awful as this must have been for him, his behavior in the aftermath (refusing to return to the boat and his ridiculous tweets) has only served to make him look bad.

8fbbf720caae616b07d3a8a12e59093f

(56)

on May 08, 2012
at 08:24 PM

The SJKS tweets were spit-takers! Come back, come back SJKS Twitterers!

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on May 08, 2012
at 08:19 PM

The 'anonymity' relevant to this case isn't on Paleohacks. Phone calls don't happen here. Especially for a diet related site, where new people may suffer low self-esteem, it makes more sense to let people hide their identity if they want to. The anti-Kruse stuff on Paleohacks has been done openly, and mostly by people who have chosen to use their real identity.

0a2dd50f2d3951bf3fb83fc4638c9512

(1960)

on May 08, 2012
at 08:13 PM

As the boys so nicely said, "Back in the USSR..."

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 08, 2012
at 08:11 PM

Forced identity will kill PH. I (and I'm sure many others) came to PH through google searches on health questions. This was some of the best information I had found and it drew me in to participate. However, we discuss some very sensitive and personal health issues here and there is no way that I want my employers being able to find out my personal health issues through a google search.

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on May 08, 2012
at 08:08 PM

Also interesting how he refused the offer to get back on the boat and yet still tweeted how sad it was for the people missing his talk. Wtf?

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28 Answers

83
C145035bde13d07121c54da046128cc1

on May 09, 2012
at 07:19 PM

That I am taking the time to write this instead of spend time with my 6 day old daughter makes me really angry.

I???m not sure which night it was???Sunday, Monday???I???m not sure because I???d been up for the better part of 36 hrs after Zoe finally arrived. Anyway, I received a phone call from Jack Kruse. I had a wiggling baby in my hands so I let it go to voicemail and tried to make a mental note to check the message in the morning. The next day I read an email from Jack indicating he???d been removed from a Carnival Cruise ship due to the tweets of a parody twitter account, @shitkrusesays, and a phone call to Carnival claiming Jack had biological agents and explosives. You know the drill on the story by now. Jack was removed from the ship, no biological agents or explosives were found. This situation was all the result of an asshole(s?) who found their time better spent fucking with Jack than getting legit work done like helping people.

When I first heard all this I was wondering if the story (Jack getting removed, bioterroer etc) was even true. Shortly it became apparent that yes, it was true. Jack texted me and said the FBI were involved, I replied ???Nail their ass to the wall??? because if I could get my hands on the @shitkrusesays and I had no legal recourse for my actions, it would not be pretty. This jack-ass has created a hell of a situation and ironically the Law of Unintended Consequences is having a laugh, at least initially at your expense. You landed Jack on the media, gave him a phenomenal story and an opportunity to curry support and favor.

Smart work asshole(s).

I seem to remember counseling against behavior like this, allowing attacks from anonymity, but that was ignored and someone pointed out I???ve changed my position on fish oil dosage, so everything I say should be held in contempt.

I then received an email with a link to the Kruse news piece. I tweeted it saying something to the effect ???some folks have done some stupid shit.??? I did this because???well, people have done stupid shit. This situation did not, as I just wrote above, materialize out of thin air. People who dislike Jack made all of this happen. If you do not see the accountability here you are a moron on par with the folks who do not see how training the Taliban against the Soviets might have had long term repercussions for us. When I shot out that tweet I was under the impression that an investigation was underway, we???d see some results sometime soon. Then I became aware Jack was naming people HE suspected might be behind things???to the MEDIA. That is NOT how you conduct a criminal investigation. You clam the hell up, don???t let potential suspects know what you are up too and then you allow law enforcement to do what it???s supposed to do. Instead Jack used this as an opportunity to silence his critics, waving around the specter that they would be under FBI investigations soon. Lists of angry/problematic bloggers had been (theoretically) provided, the shit was about to come down.

Now I think Jack made a huge mistake doing all this. On a number of levels. But despite my reservations about people getting named publicly in this thing I felt stronger about getting the whole bioterror story out. People need to cool it on the anonymous, back biting bullshit. We need to operate with some professionalism and focus on helping people, period. I had a number of folks finger wagging me that I was being duped into this thing. If you people think I???m a big enough moron to not see the conflicts here you are beyond lost and you also missed the fact that IF what Jack was claiming was inaccurate, then his goose was cooked. Credibility gone, we don???t even need to tackle MRSA injections. I thought that through, apparently you folks did not AND are squeamish with sitting in the hot seat to affect change. I guess after multiple dealings with CrossFit HQ, both on the internet and via lawyers I have thicker skin and can handle some heat if it means winning the fight. Apparently you are only willing to fight for a cause while it???s comfortable?

All of this is a big enough steaming bag of shit, but what pushed me over the edge was tweets by some of Jacks main folks to the effect ???Anyone in the paleo scene not commenting on this should be beheld suspect.??? To the folks who said shit like this, thank your stars I???m not naming you directly. Most folks will be able to put the pieces together, but that was the final straw. THAT started feeling like the WitchHunt, McCarthyism that I experienced in my CF dealings. No more. I???ve tried to just keep my head down and do good work help folks and HOPE that folks are able to figure out the right answers in this. Well, let me spell some things out: 1-Jack used this as a power grab. He was HORRIBLY victimized in this, I will not forget that nor let it go. But he also used this situation to his advantage and to the serious detriment of the Ancestral Health movement at large. 2-Thugish McCarthyism tactics were used to silence people. This is beyond appalling and is completely unacceptable. 3-Jack has made outlandish claims about self injection with MRSA, surgery sans anesthesia. This seems outlandish at best. I have just left this alone, again preferring to let folks try to figure things out. My Organic Chemistry teacher made an interesting observation of my character once: ???Robb, you give most people far too much credit?????? 4-On Cold Thermogenesis: I talked about this on my podcast and on Abel???s podcast. It is ANOTHER hormetic stressor. Like fasting, ketosis, exercise and sunlight. Some is good, too much will be bad, some people are not appropriate for it at all (late stage adrenal fatigue comes to mind). If you think this is arm chair speculation please look at this photo: http://robbwolf.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/wolf-wanker.jpg

that was posted in 2007. We have had a cold dip tub at NorCal Strength & Conditioning since 2004. I have tinkered with cold immersion since the early 90???s. I also studied heat shock proteins and clathrin chaperones. It has benefits, it is not Chuck Norris??? Tears. Cold immersion, saunas and fasting are parts of every system of health (accepting allopathy I guess). There is nothing new under the sun, gurus do not exist, if you are looking for one you are lost, and I don???t mean like you misplaced your keys, like your fucking soul is lost.

I???ve considered Jack my friend, we???ve had several phone conversations and I???ve thoroughly enjoyed them. I doubt I???m going to be popular with Jack, or much of anyone after this and I just don???t care. I???ve done my damndest to do the right thing and to try to provide some kind of safety valve/glue for this movement. If we are too stupid/irrational to sort out our shit then we deserve mainstream medicine. We deserve what we get and we reap what we sow.

I had a huge post on Paleo and sustainability I wanted to get up today. Instead I???m pissing away my time on this. I am not happy and I???m disappointed in a number of factors. But I have a 6-day-old daughter who is a miracle and I???m going to redouble my efforts to make the world better.

8fbbf720caae616b07d3a8a12e59093f

(56)

on May 10, 2012
at 06:04 AM

^^ http://jackkruse.com/ct-12-getting-back-on-board-with-my-message/ ^^

A2fe5bbd09c7804fd321e9e9a9f9d199

(1614)

on May 09, 2012
at 09:57 PM

A more general observation: Blog comments, forums, discussion boards... the format does cultivate things like e-terrorism (unjustified damage via words) as it is. The potential for information exchange is always there, but personality types get people attacking one another on the unrelated personal dimension. It's a method of "bending the narrative" of the information exchange in one's favor, as a matter of form rather than substance. To win over the hypothetical watchers. So, performance will always be a part of even this science-derived movement as long as it gets aired out on the Internet.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on May 09, 2012
at 07:55 PM

Thanks for posting Robb, get some rest and take care of that newborn. Congratulations.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18676)

on May 09, 2012
at 08:07 PM

"Credibility gone." I find it hilarious / sad that anyone ever thought Jack Kruse had credibility.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 09, 2012
at 07:52 PM

By the way-- collecting names from the freetheanimal megathread of those that disagreed with Kruse, and feeding those names to the FBI? That is [email protected] up.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on May 09, 2012
at 09:06 PM

This is so not how I expected the run-up to AHS12 to be after AHS11. #gangcolorsanyone

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 09, 2012
at 07:25 PM

http://twitter.com/#!/kevincottrell/status/199807599280005120

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on May 10, 2012
at 04:12 AM

Robb, I'm sorry you were offended by the fish oil comment. I did not mean for it to be a jab at you but rather to point out the benefit of a site like this having divergent views. By no means is everything you say held in contempt. On the contrary, I think you may have gained even more respect by modifying viewpoints.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

Remember when the big controversy was about Gary Taubes cutting in front of Aravind to ask pointed questions to Stephan Guyenet? That was some strawberry shortcake shit compared to this. Back then, MRSA was not associated with paleo, and even my dear mother was able to understand the posts written by leading paleo gurus.

8fbbf720caae616b07d3a8a12e59093f

(56)

on May 10, 2012
at 05:59 AM

Posterity! I'm here for *that*! And a little news: Jack Says: May 9th, 2012 at 7:55 pm @Zorica I’m over it…….but the perpetrators plight has just begun

3f5bbb444498a24f1a9720d75fa7c903

(2369)

on May 09, 2012
at 08:00 PM

Thankfully, sanity at last.

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on May 09, 2012
at 08:50 PM

Bless you, Robb for saying anything at all and what you have said is very well said. Thank you and congratulations on your beautiful little girl.

8fbbf720caae616b07d3a8a12e59093f

(56)

on May 10, 2012
at 06:03 AM

^ http://jackkruse.com/ct-12-getting-back-on-board-with-my-message/

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 10, 2012
at 09:04 PM

Hey, Robb, you got a badge for this post! Congratulations!

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on May 09, 2012
at 07:36 PM

MY thanks to you, Robb, for being an voice for sanity. Enjoy the time with your new child!

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 09, 2012
at 07:50 PM

Thank you for posting, Robb. Cold baths are great, hot saunas are great, and talking about science is great. No one owns these things. When I saw a long series of threatening tweets, it seemed quite thuggish. When Keith Norris tweeted about McCarthyism, it all started making sense. Negativity sucks, egotism sucks, and kitties are great. Let's get back to positive programming, for the sake of our poor cats who want to be petted while we're reading the latest news piece from cruiselinecontroversies.com (not a real website!).

15d83f76aaa6b0e38d662c20c6e097ad

(1012)

on May 09, 2012
at 10:34 PM

Robb, you are by far the best of the best!! Keep being awesome, the raw grass-fed cream always rises to the top, and you Sir, are on top! Congrats again to you and your beautiful family!! Zoe has a super dad!!

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on May 09, 2012
at 07:37 PM

Here, here! I will say that SKS was a parody account and blatantly so. It was funny and it will be missed. The call and the account likely are unlinked. The caller is the only one at fault.

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 09, 2012
at 09:35 PM

Evelyn, I really believe that Nikoley is posting at you only because he knows you'll reply. I've never seen a blogger talk about the number of comments or the number of page hits as that guy. You're just a way to bloat the comment count. I don't know what he gets out of bragging about his numbers, but he clearly gets something.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on May 09, 2012
at 07:55 PM

1) There were a good number of paleo heavies following that twitter account and everyone was in on the joke. 2) 95% of the content were quotes by Kruse IN QUOTATIONS. the stuff that wasn't was not quoted. 3) Kruse started trying to track down who was behind the account over a week ago. I'm really sorry that his own quotes coming back at him made him embarassed. 4)As far as hating Kruse goes, I don't hate him, I just believed from the beginning that type of person who was clearly ambitious inside o f the community and dishing out questionable advice was bad for the community.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 09, 2012
at 08:24 PM

Enjoy Zoe Robb! I think Jack's actions are far more f'ed up than anything SUPPOSEDLY done by SJS or "Lance" here. There is only one "official account" here. Jack's. FBI no comment. Carnival no comment (to reputable news site). The story keeps changing. Now Lance was an emailer not a caller. I don't take Jack's calling me a ring leader lightly, and as of now, I've still yet to be contacted by the FBI. People should please (not need to but please) speak out against the intimidation tactics of Jack Kruse and Dick Nikoley. JMO. Again, enjoy that new baby!!

A2fe5bbd09c7804fd321e9e9a9f9d199

(1614)

on May 09, 2012
at 09:53 PM

Yep, that about sums it up. I wonder if Dr Kruse was advised beforehand not to go public with insinuating certain individuals as potential suspects (thinking that only those in the know would read between the lines). Yes he should have clammed up and cooled off before going public about unknowns like that, it just seems common sense. I presume anger got the better of him, and now he's coming across as a perpetrator of drama though he didn't start all this.

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on May 10, 2012
at 02:09 AM

this is awesome, but i do hope you continue to help people Robb. You have made an impact in Mississippi of all places, i got so many guys on board listening to your podcasts while they work i do not think you even understand how epically HUGE that is for such a place to have big ol southern boys psyched for your WOD, your latest podcast etc. really, keep at it, youre great!

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 09, 2012
at 10:19 PM

"Chuck Norris’ Tears." LOL.

8fbbf720caae616b07d3a8a12e59093f

(56)

on May 10, 2012
at 06:04 AM

^^ http://jackkruse.com/ct-12-getting-back-on-board-with-my-message/ ^^

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on May 12, 2012
at 11:59 AM

Evelyn, he said this in his fb page, if you search for the "Dr Jack Kruse" page, he has said a lot of stuff over there. He appears to have deleted it all.

C145035bde13d07121c54da046128cc1

(1549)

on May 10, 2012
at 06:05 PM

Jeff- thanks for clarifying that...it honestly hurt my feelings a good bit. I do my best to operate sans ego and do the best for the collective...funny for a Libertarian! It's tough sometimes, you can say 1 million things that are right, and get kicked in the balls pretty good for one foible. Anyway, thanks man.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 12, 2012
at 10:57 AM

Paula, where are these Jack Says coming from? His forum?

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 14, 2012
at 10:13 AM

Ahhh, Thanks Carly. @Anonymous Chump: Yeah I got sucked in for a bit, but I can't continue. I don't have time for mind games. His comments did bring out the "hammer" from Jack that pretty much lays this to rest.

8fbbf720caae616b07d3a8a12e59093f

(56)

on May 17, 2012
at 07:17 AM

Evelyn, that was a direct quote from his blog; I posted the link in my second "comment" and seen here: http://jackkruse.com/ct-12-getting-back-on-board-with-my-message/

40
1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

on May 09, 2012
at 01:18 AM

This story still confuses me, but one thing is crystal clear- between this guy and Nikoley with his tweets in regards to this, the Paleo-sphere is drowning in assholes. Thank goodness there are terrific moderators to help pull the drain.

39
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 08, 2012
at 07:53 PM

I was one of the mods who spoke with the FBI agent first and I can confirm all of this is true. No one needs to worry.

33
2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on May 08, 2012
at 08:07 PM

Omg, finally! Some sanity in this whole mess. Thank you! This 'episode' has gotten beyond ridiculous. I myself was even implicated by Kruse because I dared to say I thought the original tweet regarding this was obviously not meant with malace. According to Kruse I need to brush up on my knowledge of FED law, because I have been "feeding" the shitkrusesays twitter account and it was implied this could lead to a 20 year prison term. Come on! I am nearly 30 year old mother who frequents twitter and happens to have strong opinions, I live in the UK. So because I am not afraid to call bullshit on Kruse that makes me a 'suspect' with a potential prison sentence. THIS IS RIDICULOUS. I am far from the only person not involved who has been accused. That is unacceptable. It is a shame he got kicked off the cruise, the sh** stirrer in this is the one who informed the boat. Not the person who sent the obviously paradoxical tweet. I just can not believe how far some people have ran with this one. Shocking.

7e1433afbb06c318c4d90860d493c49d

(5959)

on May 08, 2012
at 08:36 PM

Yeah, refusing the offer to return to the boat was a huge FU to the people on the cruise. As awful as this must have been for him, his behavior in the aftermath (refusing to return to the boat and his ridiculous tweets) has only served to make him look bad.

0a2dd50f2d3951bf3fb83fc4638c9512

(1960)

on May 08, 2012
at 08:13 PM

As the boys so nicely said, "Back in the USSR..."

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on May 09, 2012
at 08:24 AM

If I were in his shoes I certainly wouldn't be behaving in the manner he is, claiming the FBI are feeding him info they are not, and accusing innocent people. He has his big giant wooden spoon out in all this and is stirring it big time.

8fbbf720caae616b07d3a8a12e59093f

(56)

on May 08, 2012
at 08:24 PM

The SJKS tweets were spit-takers! Come back, come back SJKS Twitterers!

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on May 08, 2012
at 08:08 PM

Also interesting how he refused the offer to get back on the boat and yet still tweeted how sad it was for the people missing his talk. Wtf?

A2fe5bbd09c7804fd321e9e9a9f9d199

(1614)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:00 PM

If I were in his shoes I wouldn't be jumping on a last second offer to go back on as scheduled and pretend as if nothing had happened. It's too much to deal with at once.

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on May 09, 2012
at 11:03 AM

The FBI confirmed no IPs were given to Kruse.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 09, 2012
at 09:55 AM

@Joe: He's lying to you and everyone. I know this because he claims that the IP's came from NY, Chicago and Boston. Well as NY here, I know none of those tweets were mine, and the FBI has not contacted me. It's now Wed. morning and still nothing.

32
24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 08, 2012
at 09:48 PM

I am the supposed "ringleader from NY" mentioned in one of the interviews. As of this posting, nobody has contacted me. Which is no surprise as I have nothing to do with the what increasingly appears to be a publicity stunt and/or a way out of revealing Factor X (contract?) on the cruise as promised.

I'm not worried about any legal action -- civil or criminal. I am a tad worried about what legions of riled up internet folks are capable of.

3b0b95dfc6dc5c18e535945f4aab0866

(2392)

on May 09, 2012
at 10:14 AM

Evelyn, leave it to you to imply overwhelming commercial self-interests as a major factor in what is going on here.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 09, 2012
at 08:28 PM

Oh poor poor wildwabbit. Wake up and smell the coffee OK? I have not been contacted by the FBI. Now go back and rewatch the channel 5 account (I'll be embedding it in a post tomorrow if you don't have a link) it's all Jack said this and Jack said that. If the FBI actually IS still on this, it's not to track down "those behind the mysterious tweet".

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on May 09, 2012
at 04:33 AM

LOL ringleader. He likes to sound important I guess.

C98a4de749025bb18463c1fda764e81c

(148)

on May 10, 2012
at 11:33 AM

I'm no lawyer but should he seek legal action I recommend you follow the precedent set in the case of Arkell vs. Pressdram. http://www.nasw.org/users/nbauman/arkell.htm

28
B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

on May 08, 2012
at 08:50 PM

If you are here to discuss Paleo, welcome!

If you are here to talk trash and promote your pay-for-diluted-medical-advice website, don't let the door hit your e-ass on the way out.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 09, 2012
at 04:22 PM

Adam, you should certainly thank Patrick for all these upvotes.

26
90fa23ed13d2cf6163e49c0e641a484a

on May 09, 2012
at 09:52 PM

Dear PH and everyone else,

If I may be so bold as to narrow this down to the basics:

  1. The basics of paleo nutrition are as follows: Eat whole unprocessed foods and stop/decrease the ingestion of processed foods in order to mimic the diet of preagricultural humans in accordance with the evolutionary, physiological and anthropological evidence. There are variations to this basic theme and there is much more to understand. Therefore, Jack's CT ideas are clearly NOT paleo. I make no judgement about the efficacy of what he proposes. I can say that the mechanism used to justify it has some holes in it physiologically, biochemically and developmentally. Nonetheless, therapies sometimes work without understanding.

  2. It is not OK to suggest bioterrorism in order to rattle or threaten someone. I would have preferred that this not have happened to Jack. If the responsible person is within this community, you have done the community a disservice by such an act.

  3. It is NOT ok to take advantage of the situation. Jack, I request that you cease posting CT information in Paleo Blogs/Facebook/etc. Again, it's simply not Paleo and it's truly divisive. I know you care about this community so please take this advice seriously. It would truly heal a lot of open wounds. What you do on your own blog is yours and more power to you.

  4. Implicating someone without due process is irresponsible and unethical.

  5. The continued discussions of this event are hurting our community.

So, I suggest dear friends, that we simply cease the discussion. Please be patient as things sort out. Take a break! Let some time go by! Come back in 72 hours! Let's see what happens. Please stop speculating. Get back to the basics of Paleo! Write positive blogs about how this nutrition program saved yourself or your friends and family.

Get back to the basics that made this movement work! We still have the ADA and the USDA myplate.com to take on! THAT is our true target for this movement! Sustainability is our goal. Diabetes and obesity is our target. Lean bodies is our goal. Healthier lives are our objective.

Suddenly, I feel like John Belushi in Animal House... "Who's with me.... LET'S GO!"

Yours in Paleo, Dr. David Pendergrass

59fa7cd87fb9d669adf21e5cf3e7ada5

on May 09, 2012
at 11:28 PM

Amend, I owe so much to Paleo that I can't even begin to make a list. In the winter of 2005 We were hungry, just barely alive By May the 10th, my LDL had fell It's a time I remember, oh so well The night they drove old Paleo down And the bells were ringing The night they drove old Paleo down And the people were singing They went, "Na, na, la, na, na, la" Everybody sing along!

792634a784ec6a636c3137d0903e11b4

(1196)

on May 09, 2012
at 11:26 PM

I agree. I'd stop there but I needed more characters to get the comment submitted ;).

B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

(10778)

on May 11, 2012
at 12:10 AM

Great summary, Dr. D! Paleo nutrition became 'true' over a few million years... Don't stress about who is fighting to be alpha-attention-hog this week or year, the basics will remain the same for years... Many, many, many years.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 12, 2012
at 07:12 AM

Is CT "Cold therapy" or something like that?

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 12, 2012
at 10:33 AM

"Cold thermogenesis" according to Jack. Cold therapy to most of the rest of the world who's been using it for, like, forever.

24
E7320c552ab7453d2ff45d4be79f6b50

on May 09, 2012
at 03:33 PM

My name was mentioned as one of the "possible perpetrators" too, simply because I have openly voiced my opinion about Dr. Kruse. It seems like any time someone voices an opinion that is contrary to that of the good doctor, he or his loyal lackey Kevin jump on them immediately.

For some reason people have seemingly forgotten that the very premise of Paleo, was to go against the conventional wisdom practices of the "mainstream" and question everything. Now, a person who does not deserve to be a figurehead of the movement is using strong arm tactics to force people into believing the things that he says....while frequently using the "call to authority" logical fallacy. The people that follow him treat him like a cult leader, and that's straight scary to me.

I don't agree with his theories, his science, his attitude or his tactics, and I will continue to make that known....as is my right.

I'm proud to have people like Robb Wolf, Mark Sisson, and Chris Kresser, as leaders of our movement, but not a person who acts this way. The whole thing is a big three-ring circus right now, and it's going to do nothing but harm the movement. I don't even know what can be done right now, as far as damage control goes, but we would all be better served by distancing ourselves from this debacle.

At the end of the day, people like that will always self-destruct, if you just let them.....the problem is that sometimes they go up like Hiroshima.

F00e022ce184879578d0829d8d09a85d

(169)

on May 09, 2012
at 05:40 PM

It is your right and more people need to exercise it. I do and get called names for it, but I wont stop. Obviously neither will you. Kudos for that!!

Db324bd4457587115e48afcd243b00d3

(80)

on May 09, 2012
at 09:26 PM

I disagree Barry. The original premise of Paleo is to follow the science...even when that flies in the face of mainstream perception. But with everything else you are spot on

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 12, 2012
at 11:02 AM

Your big mistake was C&P'ing entire posts from my blog and posting them on that paleo news site with the "like this article" and "for more info" directing to your website. Pretty sleazy. Let Lila take the fall for that too, Barry. Man up and own up.

E7320c552ab7453d2ff45d4be79f6b50

on May 14, 2012
at 01:47 PM

Also Evelyn, I tried to post a comment on your blog about that issue, but I couldn't figure out how to do it, and I didn't have time to mess with it a great deal. I am blonde you know! :-)

E7320c552ab7453d2ff45d4be79f6b50

on May 14, 2012
at 01:41 PM

I'm not sure that was my "big mistake" Evelyn, considering that I'm not the person in question here. I am sorry that happened. At the end of the day, I'm just trying to support my family, and writing articles for Paleo Diet News is a way to supplement my income. I didn't mean you any harm.....infact, I've always agreed with your point of view. I honestly didn't know that what I did was wrong, and I was floored that you went on the attack in the manor that you did. I had thought that you and I could have united in our opinions, but that seems lost now. I'm not the enemy, ask Kamal Patel.

20
Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on May 09, 2012
at 03:49 PM

Patrik has already provided the best answer.

"Kruse is a victim of himself".

I'm all for stirring the pot every now and then, but when you stir it as vigorously as Kruse does, you're bound to fall in.

20
66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

on May 08, 2012
at 07:56 PM

I spoke with the FBI agent who is covering this case also.

19
E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

on May 08, 2012
at 08:50 PM

The Kruse-bashing stuff makes me really uncomfortable and I see it as a major flaw in the paleosphere. Collegiality is important for productive discourse. Ad hominem is useless, distracting, and perhaps the weakest form of argument. Kruse might not always abide by these rules, but that does not excuse the rest of us.

I can't believe someone made a twitter account dedicated to making fun of this guy. He's already an outcast here. I don't put faith in what he says, mostly because I can't understand it, but whoever is behind this twitter account has crossed a line by tweeting about a bomb/bio threat. What a thoughtless thing to do. It's totally foreseeable that it would end with an investigation. As for JK himself and his behavior, what did you expect? He is who he is.

Also, did anyone notice that the spokesperson for Carnival Cruise is named Jennifer De La Cruz? ha.

[EDIT for clarity: I recognize there have been useful and valid critiques of Kruse's (I almost typed Cruises) work and not everything written about him is ad hominem. One of the misfortunes of having so much ad hominem is that the valid critiques do get swept up in the mix and they are less likely to be heard and thoughtfully weighed. I think I am perhaps overly empathetic about the prospect of a twitter feed dedicated to making fun of someone, but also recognize the value in satire as a tool for exposing truth. If you put yourself out as an expert/celebrity/politician/whatever you will open yourself up to such commentary, particularly if you are controversial or polarizing. That said, tweeting about a bio-threat on a cruise foreseeably could result in an investigation. I think the tweeter should have factored in that someone would make the ridiculous mistake of taking it seriously and call in the threat, particularly now.

Also, I hope you won't downvote, but explanations for downvotes are helpful.]

15d83f76aaa6b0e38d662c20c6e097ad

(1012)

on May 09, 2012
at 04:27 PM

The crime is the call...not the twitter acct.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 08, 2012
at 10:27 PM

I don't think they attacked Kruse. That tweet was a parody. The person who called Carnival turned it into an attack.

34b560c8b9ce660d7839fb7e29d7be89

on May 08, 2012
at 09:33 PM

Ad hominem is a weak form of argument but it isn't as though numerous, valid critiques of his work haven't also been made. To reduce all that has been said of him, here and elsewhere, to "bashing" is also a bit of a weak arguement, ie-straw man. SKS twitter account is satire and the post in question is a parody that is in the same vein as actual statements made by the man himself, publicly. The issue is that someone made a phone call insinuating that it was real and taking it out of context, not in the spirit of the actual tweet.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 10:36 PM

also, I should clarify and say that just because something is objectively foreseeable, doesn't mean the tweeter actually did foresee it and intentionally acted anyway. Foreseeable is different than intentional. I believe this tweeter did not intend for all of this fallout to occur.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 08, 2012
at 10:20 PM

urse these ar e the same people who call the FBI. Personally, I' ve never considered calling the FBI. Has anyone else ever considered calling the FBI or actually called the FBI?

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:07 PM

@PaleoVenus --- Kruse is a victim of himself.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:38 PM

@Amerindian, to clarify, I did not reduce all that has been said of Kruse to ad hominem, I pointed out that a lot of what is said about Kruse here is ad hominem and I find that to be uncharacteristic of the things I enjoy about paleohacks. I did not follow the SKS twitter account, so i am not in a position to comment on it beyond what i have expressed about my surprise that such a twitter account should even exist. Again, I think it's foreseeable that someone would see that tweet and report it. There are examples of such inanity in the news everyday re: airport security.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 08, 2012
at 10:22 PM

Of course, these are the same people who call the FBI. (Edit)

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:18 PM

@Patrik, I wouldn't know, but I suspect you are right based on what others have posted about Kruse and the lack of such ad hominem commentary on Sisson, Harris and Nikoley. As well as the fact that there is a twitter feed dedicated to making fun of him. But that doesn't change my discomfort with the ad hominem attacks and the fake bio-threat.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 10:29 PM

@Shah, people report this stuff all the time. I've never done it, but I think we all know that people do it, it's in the news constantly. It's why no one jokes about bombs when their in an airport. PAs are constantly instructing people to be overly cautious. The Cruise Line and the police saw enough merit to investigate after the report was made. So there's a chain reaction happening here and there was enough momentum to keep it going.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:02 PM

Hi Melissa, I'm relatively new here, and this may only be a pattern as of late, but I think I've read about 8 posts about Kruse and of those, about 6 were dedicated to evaluating his character and full of negative comments about the person he is and the nonsensical things he says. In fairness, and to the credit of the mods, I think some were deleted. As a newbie, I immediately got the impression that Kruse was not well-respected around these parts because I don't see these types of posts about any of the other paleo gurus. (cont'd)

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:10 PM

@Patrik, I don't think he is a victim. I think many people find him inflammatory (to use a word) and attack his personal character. They might be right about him.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:38 PM

And far too many of the valid critiques and criticisms are being swept into the ad hominem category when they are anything but that. And yes the twitter account was funny and a parody and interestingly enough 95% of it was crap that came out of Jack's own mouth. Stuff he has said or written himself in public. How is that some attack on him?

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41767)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:17 PM

Quilt is only a big deal here because he actually was active here. Everybody else doesn't give a shit about PH...

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 10:31 PM

@Melissa, as I've expressed, I think the tweet was irresponsible because it's foreseeable that this would happen. Sounds like normally the tweets were mostly things JK himself had said, and this tweet deviated from that pattern.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:11 PM

@PaleoVenus -- Sisson, Harris, and Nikoley are NOTHING like Kruse. Nothing.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:44 PM

@Shari, i agree, there are a lot of valid critiques Kruse's theories/work, but most (not all) of what i've read has been ad hominem. It's not a scientific breakdown, just what i've happened to get exposure to since I've joined the site. My perspective is limited and only valuable in that I represent an outsider looking in on this controversy. As I said, i didn't follow the account, but it's existence is, in and of itself, an attack on him, even if it is an accurate one. If people want to laugh at him, I won't evaluate the merits of that. Satire is a powerful tool for exposing truth.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:04 PM

He pulled a good part of his following from here. Why he doesn't like this place is for one reason only. This was the ONLY major site in the paleosphere that dared even ATTEMPT to vet this man.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 08, 2012
at 10:15 PM

I agree with PaleoVenus. Somebody wanted to shame me for wanting to exhume Bill Rhenquist's copse to be the judge at Jack's "paleowold "excommication trial".This was in the context of me writing an earlier "rocking"defense of Jack!!!!! Do not ever, and I mean ever, underestimate the ability of ONE PERSON to misunderstand sarcasm.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:13 PM

@Patrik, I wouldn't know, but I suspect you are right based on what others have posted about Kruse and the lack of such ad hominem commentary on Sisson, Harris and Nikoley.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 08, 2012
at 08:54 PM

How is he an outcast here? He's one of the top-scoring users?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

A parody is an attack now? Can't wait to tell the Secret Service about SNL.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 10:25 PM

@Melissa, I think we're getting caught up in terms. Maybe "attack" is too loose of term for this conversation. It's an attack in the sense that all parodies are attacks on something in that they point out flaws or failures. Unfortunately, the twitter account did end up attacking Kruse, in a very literal way, though I gather unintentionally and without forethought as to the possibility that someone might take a bio-threat joke seriously.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:07 PM

(cont'd) Perhaps it's fairer to say he is polarizing, but so are Sisson, Harris, Nikoley, and others and I haven't seen entire posts dedicated to their personal character/history or professional life. I think the attacks on Kruse are much more ad hominem than substantive.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 08, 2012
at 10:17 PM

Yes, Melisa!Evidently some people have never seen SNL. It only been on since 1975! :)

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:06 PM

Perhaps it's fairer to say he is polarizing, but so are Sisson, Harris, Nikoley, and others and I haven't seen entire posts dedicated to their personal character/history or professional life. I think the attacks on Kruse are much more ad hominem.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on May 08, 2012
at 09:16 PM

Whatever the various opinions on Kruse may be, it is clear that any discussion of him -- whether it is about his personality or his science or some combination of the two -- cannot be sustained for very long without people getting upset at each other. Yesterday (just coincidentally the day before the Carnaval incident) I decided to delete one Kruse thread and close another. Some are "anti" and some are "pro." In the future I (we) will be very quick to close and delete threads about Kruse just to avoid the chaos that always seems to follow, unless I hear otherwise from Patrik.

19
4ec0fe4b4aab327f7efa2dfb06b032ff

(5145)

on May 08, 2012
at 08:41 PM

The man always came across as a charlatan to me and this episode just confirms that impression. Keeping "enemy lists", bullying people with baseless threats of criminal prosecution... If this precipitates his disappearance from this site, I say good riddance.

15
Bc5e3d677762126c2b5b43287cdcd624

on May 09, 2012
at 02:29 PM

Being somewhat new to the Paleo world, it has become apparent that paleos are highly intelligent, eloquent, passionate folks. In addition, they seem quite good at being really mean. Just because we eat like cavemen doesn't mean that we need to behave like cavemen.

24fcc21452ebe39c032be6801d6bbadd

(9812)

on May 09, 2012
at 02:44 PM

True- lots of good people in the community, but also a lot with big brains and bigger egos. Very disappointing to see all the nastiness and attempted intimidation surrounding this situation, but I guess I wasn't surprised; I've been seeing stuff deteriorate for awhile. Just gotta keep eating good food and hanging with the friendly folks!

183f5c49a7a9548b6f5238d1f33cb35e

(1716)

on May 09, 2012
at 09:04 PM

Yeah I'm just amazed at how much energy some folks put into being mean :(

12
F00e022ce184879578d0829d8d09a85d

(169)

on May 09, 2012
at 04:11 AM

I don't listen to Kruse anyways, he blows too much air out of his butt for me to take seriously. The fact that he is trying to scare certain people to silence them is really pathetic, I just can't take him seriously. Let him huff and puff. Over time his following will dwindle and he will be insignificant. I don't think he will get a full 15 minutes of fame. 10 maybe, but not the full 15.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 09, 2012
at 04:15 AM

Just hope he doesn't become the Kimmer of paleo. Kurt Harris tried to sound the warning. No one (mostly) listened.

F00e022ce184879578d0829d8d09a85d

(169)

on May 09, 2012
at 05:38 PM

Speaking of screws: http://www.aansneurosurgeon.org/210112/8/1210

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 09, 2012
at 04:32 AM

LOL! That's exactly it! He's Kimmer!!! I'm howling. And yes many spoke up but they were shut down. That were labeled "haters". Uh huh. And this is what happens when good people sit back and do nothing. When the leaders refuse to lead well this is what you get.

F00e022ce184879578d0829d8d09a85d

(169)

on May 09, 2012
at 05:47 PM

If anything Kruse is a great example to be more skeptical of anyone claiming to have the inside scoop on diet/exercise and trying to align themselves with a certain movement. From what I have read of late he is now changing his tune, which makes it look like he only used Paleo & LC to get his name out. Another Kimmer? More than likely. Better yet another self serving a**hole. http://jackkruse.com/ct-12-getting-back-on-board-with-my-message/

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 09, 2012
at 02:52 PM

+1 for calling a vulture a vulture. I think this is at the core of my issue with all of this. People being taken advantage of. People being hurt. I say screw that!

F00e022ce184879578d0829d8d09a85d

(169)

on May 09, 2012
at 01:42 PM

It wouldn't surprise me if he did. Scam artists have been around ever since there was something of value to take from others. Everyone lies, some just go to greater lengths & do more damage. I have no desire to do that as does the majority of the world. Life is tough enough without having to deal with vultures. Which is why I will call "BS" if I smell something. People don't like it and I get called a "hater" or an "evil person", but I can live with that. I would rather say something than sit on my duff & watch people take it in the rump. It makes me mad to watch others get taken advantage of.

12
59fa7cd87fb9d669adf21e5cf3e7ada5

on May 08, 2012
at 10:20 PM

The whole thing is so bizarre that it's hard to believe, honestly who would have bet that on a Paleo/LC cruise (who takes a cruise devoted to food in the first place?) a terrorism threat would arise?

You can't make this stuff up, if you wrote a fictional story about it nobody would believe it. Your agent would send it back and ask what the heck was wrong with you.

Ultimately it will make good "News Of The Weird" material.

C56baa1b4f39839c018180bf63226f7d

(3499)

on May 09, 2012
at 01:50 AM

Not that I've been on a cruise, but it seems to me that food is usually one of the selling points.

Eecc48184707bc26bce631485b5b7e34

(4764)

on May 09, 2012
at 12:40 AM

The irony? The parody wasn't too far from the real, actual crazy behavior in which he has engaged.

24fcc21452ebe39c032be6801d6bbadd

(9812)

on May 11, 2012
at 12:54 PM

Very true Katherine; a lot of folks have lost sight of that.

11
A97b68379a576dfa764a4828304d2efb

(4176)

on May 09, 2012
at 12:16 AM

Hey, look on the bright side: this "case" could convert a few FBI agents to the paleo lifestyle. Healthier government agents? Win.

A97b68379a576dfa764a4828304d2efb

(4176)

on May 09, 2012
at 12:55 PM

Ha. Yeah, I am sure the official report on this one would be entertaining to read. "A small community of saturated fat enthusiasts turned volatile last week; meat is the suspected culprit. The China Study is willing to offer testimony against meat in exchange for permanent subsidization of all soy and corn products."

D8a7a162b686e8dc8fab6ea1eda3b6aa

(30)

on May 09, 2012
at 11:40 PM

The agent whom I spoke with suggested we all get a candy bar and a soda and "chill".

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 09, 2012
at 01:32 AM

I looked on Kruse's blog to see his reaction to all this mess and ..... I kid you not..... he said that he tried to talk to the Galveston police about getting going on cold thermogenises.

5a506bcfafe352e8fe11ebac285aa3e4

on May 10, 2012
at 12:11 AM

The agent I spoke to was fat.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 09, 2012
at 09:07 AM

The agent I spoke to seemed less than enthusiastic.

D8a7a162b686e8dc8fab6ea1eda3b6aa

(30)

on May 12, 2012
at 02:57 AM

Apparently not. Agent Baker really did actually say that to me. :(

A97b68379a576dfa764a4828304d2efb

(4176)

on May 10, 2012
at 01:02 AM

I bet all the paleo folks they interviewed looked like the sleek and sexy cast from a heist movie. "I will chill... I will NOT take the candy bar."

4e71477b1b79dfbe3aa9d6fcbc6aa859

on May 12, 2012
at 02:49 AM

So, Paleo Cafe I am guessing our "Paleo representatives" weren't really impressing them much...outstanding!

10
3b38bcc91dbfc6a114f4bdce544103d3

(409)

on May 08, 2012
at 08:10 PM

Sorry to hear about this mess. I hope everything clears up and smooths over soon! I enjoy this site and all the inforamtion I can get and encouragement from others. Hopefully Karma will catch up with this person quickly!

7
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 12, 2012
at 06:58 AM

"Leader in the paleo community..."

"leaders of our movement..."

"major paleo leaders from Boston, Chicago, and NY"

Leaders? LOL. It's just a way of eating! I didn't know we had leaders. Can somebody tell me who my major paleo leaders in Spain are, so I can tell them that I don't need a leader? LOL.
"Paleo" gets worse by the day.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41767)

on May 12, 2012
at 01:20 PM

You can tell a self-appointed leader from their inflated sense of self-worth. :) The paleo blogosphere is full of folks who think they're the true defender of all things paleo.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 14, 2012
at 04:50 PM

I don't follow anybodies blog but I occasionally end up on one after a Google search of a topic or from following a link. I really don't take that much interest in any of these people. Not even "The Leaders" LOL

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 16, 2012
at 05:26 AM

I got downvoted for not wanting a leader! LOL

5
24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 14, 2012
at 12:21 PM

I'm answering this again so it gets bumped.

I knew if Jack kept talking long enough, he'd be his own undoing. And that's just what happened over the weekend. I blogged on this: http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2012/05/its-over.html

Jack claimed on Nasty Dick's blog that his team had tracked down "Lance" to NY, a 320 lb non-paleo innocent bystander who was alarmed by the tweet and alerted Carnival. All of this he knows because his attorney in NY has deposed "Lance".

You don't want to miss Kurt Harris channeling Quilt in the comments and other hilarious commentary!

24fcc21452ebe39c032be6801d6bbadd

(9812)

on May 14, 2012
at 01:04 PM

I'd read Eenfeldt's post via his facebook page and was really disappointed by the gossip-mag-vibe of it; I left a link to this PH thread on the facebook comments.

4
93ceb7339c3e58a714030f91cda1d792

on May 09, 2012
at 08:11 PM

There is certainly a lot coming from all directions on this. I think what was done to Jack was clearly not funny and seriously stupid. The FBI will likely find the person behind it and I hope it's not a leader in the paleo community. I also feel badly for Jimmy Moore and company for having a cloud cast over an event that takes a lot of time to plan well in advance. Jimmy mentioned to me before he left that there is no internet on the ship, but I'm sure there is at various ports of call. I have yet to see anything from him on this, but I'm sure he'll address it.

All that said, I wish Jack had provided his list to just the investigators. There's no doubt they would have asked him whom he believed might be resposible. But to go public was unnecessary. I can only think that Jack feels he has been so publically excoriated by other people in the low carb/paleo community that he wanted to repay the favor. Unfortunately, that was the low road.

In the end, I hope this all blows over. I and a lot of people who are trying to learn about diet and health and who genuinely need help are going to be turned off by all this infighting. Is it really necessary to be so critical of different views to the extent that you personally attack and denigrate a person's hard work?

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 10, 2012
at 01:03 AM

No Jack with the help and support of Kevin Cottrell is, According to Jack and Kevin both, planning a huge civil lawsuit against the perpetrators. Of course the suit would be without merit but since when do those two care about merit or fact? Allegedly. Yes they seem to having quite a grand time with is so we can expect to see this thing drag on into next year I'm quite sure. Poor Jack. No really. Very pore Jack. I've never run across anyone so clearly devoid of any riches. It's quite sad really.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 09, 2012
at 10:24 PM

I wonder if the FBI, or any authority, will do anything at all on this or even continue the search for the tweeter and caller. I think it's probably pretty low priority and unless Kruse is pressing charges, not sure there is motivation to spend resources on furthering the investigation. So the world may never know...That's TOTAL speculation, maybe someone with more experience can weigh in.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 09, 2012
at 09:55 PM

But what exactly was "done to Jack"? Giving him the benefit of the doubt that he is not the one behind this whole thing (which is very much in doubt IMO) then yes he was clearly inconvenienced. But I fail to see how he has suffered anything beyond that. It actually looks to me that he is benefiting wildly from the drama. God knows he's milked it to within an inch of its life. The FBI doesn't consider the SKS twitter account to have been threat. It was clearly a parody. They don't seem to care much about it at any rate So again what horrible thing has been done to poor Jack?

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 10, 2012
at 07:49 PM

I mean, unless there's enough evidence pointing to the 'perpetrators' on the face of his complaint, the suit will get dropped. I think that's usually how it works. You can't just sue without meeting some initial burden of proof.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 10, 2012
at 07:48 PM

Shari, he can file a civil law suit, but against whom? If the FBI/other authorities do not continue the investigation on criminal charges (they wouldn't be involved in a civil case) then Jack would probably have to prove in court who the perpetrators are, which sounds like it will be pretty hard to do unless he hires a P.I. Or am I missing something?

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 12, 2012
at 10:38 AM

PV: The threat of a suit is more powerful as a means to silence people.

4
Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 09, 2012
at 01:10 AM

Really, my hope is that the acrimony from everyone goes away. I went by Kruse's blog to see what he had to say.

"On the Low Carb cruise I was going to present some of the things that happened in my mind at the base of Michelangelo???s David in help me realize that the missing piece to the obesity and insulin resistant story was the ???off switch??? in how we make fat and how we continue to make fat cells. Gary Taubes was scheduled to the featured speaker for the cruise but he could not attend it so Jimmy Moore asked me to step in his role. Gary wrote a book called, ???Why we get Fat??? but I clearly am not Gary Taubes, and I was not here to tell them why we get fat??????..I was going to tell you how to reverse being fat and insulin resistant??????because unlike, Mr. Taubes, I have done it myself pretty successfully. Obese humans have a difficult life to live. I know the life they live because I was one of them for close to decade. It is very hard to take advice from someone who has never had obesity. To understand the mindset one has to have walked in the shoes. Most of the people giving out advice however have not had a successful tract history of losing the weight and keeping it off."

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on May 09, 2012
at 01:59 AM

But Taubes was fat and lost weight on Atkins. Does Quilty not know this? I think it was like 30-40 pounds, but I can't find the URL right now. Surely someone else here has it?

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 09, 2012
at 01:27 AM

Michelangelo’s David is the inspiration behind the Holy Trinity?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 09, 2012
at 08:23 AM

He didn't earn the special morbid obesity badge.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 09, 2012
at 01:18 AM

It's weird how people are so sensitive to calling out ad hominems when they think it's Kruse under attack, but I guess he gets a free pass? I mean you can't get more ad hominem than saying your ideas are more valid than another person's ideas because you were fat and they weren't. Either way, it's sad he didn't get to be on the ship, because the LC cruise was where he belonged.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1502)

on May 09, 2012
at 05:31 PM

@Melissa, no one gets a free pass. We see it and we don't like it, but we don't have to repeat it to defeat it. Trust in people to judge on substance (it's the reason I love many of your posts). There will always be Kool-aid drinkers.

4
725220a3fc595fbb5d96e71bfd690695

(254)

on May 09, 2012
at 12:37 AM

You gotta admit that keeping the "fued" alive draws a lot of hits to the PH sites and other related sites. Keeps the paleosphere buzzing and drama is always good for more traffic. Sort of reminds me of Jerry Springer or Maury back in the day.

870fdea50f2a9f1cd2890c8e22549300

(2056)

on May 09, 2012
at 03:11 PM

Honestly, who needs reality TV when actual unstaged reality is so bizarre at times.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on May 09, 2012
at 08:16 PM

It is depressing.

4
417ac0e162dc468b8ca61a574e5cd3c0

on May 08, 2012
at 08:04 PM

Patrick, please consider phasing out all anonymity on your site and it will raise the quality of the overall exchange, IMHO. Require real identity for newbies and give a phase-in time for current folks. There is absolutely no valid justification for all this anonymity on a site such as this (and in much the rest of the paleosphere). Folks: We are talking about diet, health and wellness here! We are not whistle-blowing terrorist organizations/mafia, etc. Just reasonably identify yourselves, it's no biggie. This leads to an improved culture of respect and understanding, with more consciousness/less ego followed by true, meaningful cultural change.

anonymitynotpaleo#!

John Collins

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on May 08, 2012
at 08:11 PM

Forced identity will kill PH. I (and I'm sure many others) came to PH through google searches on health questions. This was some of the best information I had found and it drew me in to participate. However, we discuss some very sensitive and personal health issues here and there is no way that I want my employers being able to find out my personal health issues through a google search.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on May 08, 2012
at 10:29 PM

Kruse's "Galveston incident" has nothing what so ever to do with paleohacks nor the anonymity of paleohacks users.

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on May 08, 2012
at 11:54 PM

I disagree that anonymity is the problem. I suggested in another meta thread to consider something like Metafilter does: charge a very small fee to get an account that requires mailing the money by postal mail. It introduces just enough hassle and waiting period to discourage people joining just to be trolling jerks. Also, limiting posting until a certain level of __ is reached. Both of these techniques work with anonymity.

306aa57660d911781231f8090c2a5619

(3808)

on May 09, 2012
at 12:01 AM

Phasing out anonymity will kill participation from all those who don't want their every non-SAD opinion easily googleable by anyone for any reason. This especially includes people educated in sciences, whose viewpoints are incredibly valuable, and whose careers are most likely to be negatively impacted by publicly discussing nonstandard dietary views. It will also limit people's willingness to discuss sensitive topics (their pooping habits, moods, etc.) which are so vitally important to have in the open when discussing diet.

193b7fb0fec8913d5ebb3b99a04d21c6

(2918)

on May 09, 2012
at 05:48 PM

Not allowing people to remain anonymous on a health forum is actually a HIPAA violation. In other words, your personal health information should be personal and protected because it can be used against you in many ways.

6ec8d30130a6fb274871314533b5536b

(581)

on May 09, 2012
at 08:23 AM

While I might not mind discussing my health issues, etc... on here, a lot of people do. There are some people who don't want their personal body/mind/diet/etc... issues to tie directly to their real-life identity. I don't mind the anonymity. And charging for accounts? Ridiculous. I don't even have the money for an all grass-fed diet as it is. -___- Besides, the trolling happened on TWITTER, not Paleohacks...

8292546789ca48c32ead34c6e884d059

on May 09, 2012
at 01:10 PM

A lot of people get fired for or do not get jobs because of their online activities. What if my next boss is a vegan?

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on May 08, 2012
at 08:19 PM

The 'anonymity' relevant to this case isn't on Paleohacks. Phone calls don't happen here. Especially for a diet related site, where new people may suffer low self-esteem, it makes more sense to let people hide their identity if they want to. The anti-Kruse stuff on Paleohacks has been done openly, and mostly by people who have chosen to use their real identity.

6ec8d30130a6fb274871314533b5536b

(581)

on May 09, 2012
at 08:23 AM

Well, TWitter and a phone call.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 09, 2012
at 11:12 PM

Laina, I don't think HIPAA applies to PH. All information shared here is voluntary. If PH went with full disclosure, then people uncomfortable with that simply wouldn't partake. Problem solved.

306aa57660d911781231f8090c2a5619

(3808)

on May 09, 2012
at 12:26 AM

See also http://blog.disqus.com/post/15638234811/pseudonyms - the Disqus discussion platform found that those with registered pseudonyms (and therefore, a consistent, though anonymous, identity) made the highest quality comments.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on May 09, 2012
at 03:57 PM

aside from the fact that I completely disagree, phasing out anonymity is impossible. I can claim whatever I want, and short of being a "known" or "public" figure, or being under real investigation, people would never be able to ascertain whether I am real or bogus. There are 50 zillion images online of people's faces and identity. I could mix a few and commandeer any of them at any time. That's why the old saying... "be careful where you get your info" is such a cliche... because it's very good advice. Discernment is invaluable.

3
6ec8d30130a6fb274871314533b5536b

(581)

on May 09, 2012
at 08:19 AM

Thanks for clearing this up! I saw Robb Wolf's tweet about this incident, and was still pretty confused about what happened...

All confusion is cleared now. :) Very concise. Glad to know Paleohacks will still be around!

3
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 09, 2012
at 04:08 AM

...and don't ya'll wanna know what Factor X is?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 09, 2012
at 05:05 AM

Hey, what is it with the disappearing comments? PH = strange place sometimes!

Ca2c940a1947e6200883908592956680

(8574)

on May 09, 2012
at 08:33 AM

Off Kruse's site: "In closing this talk/blog, I want to let you know I have a webinar scheduled for May 19th where I will be exposing what Factor X is and how it causes a sped up epigenetic program in modern humans. Seating is limited to 100 and only 25 seats remain."

016de26fe61daf799662d3b7b2468324

(678)

on May 10, 2012
at 01:45 AM

Brittany Spears is going to be a new judge! Wait a minute, wrong show.

2
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 10, 2012
at 04:51 PM

Patrik, the ultimate decorum and culture in PH rests with you. I've seen you make calls against ad hominem in threads before but then it continues without any restraint whatsoever. It's happening in this thread.

Examples -

"...he blows too much air out of his butt for me to take seriously."

"Better yet another self serving a**hole"

"If this precipitates his disappearance from this site, I say good riddance."

You've even participated yourself with, "Kruse is a victim of himself."

These serve no other purpose than to foment hatred and enhance a false self-esteem by publicly bashing others. I would imagine that this behavior has kept a good many doctors and other potential contributors from participating actively in PH because of the arrogant attitudes and air of divisiveness that permeates PH. I know I don't contribute as much because of the copped-attitude by a certain young moderator in an early-on post. Not professional at all.

I've been in quite a few forums over the past two decades, photography, guns, politics and other paleo, but there is considerable control over the content and attitudes that take place. If a post even smelled of possible ad hominem, a public cease-and-desist was made, the post deleted, or a PM sent to the perpetrator that his or her account was at risk of being deleted. You have made cease-and-desist orders but they have no teeth.

There have been a lot of intelligent posts and topics in PH and I've learned a lot but the immature culture that pervades PH with factions that swoop in with hatefests is beyond the pale and often I find myself being more disgusted than enlightened. These attacks have happened to Mercola, Taubes and many others whose ideas didn't coincide with a certain faction and the hype that that they lack credibility because they're selling something or promoting their own website is effete nonsense. Even one of the moderators promotes her own website, as she should. More power to them all in the war on SAD. Politics is not supposed to be discussed in PH (a good rule) but this thread and others like it are nothing but. The hypocrisy continues.

You had a good idea starting this forum but the format and management of it are lacking. John Collins' plea to require accounts would be a first good step to get this forum under control. The claims of bosses finding out about you are bogus as one could still be anonymous with a pseudonym as many do here already, but an account that can be deleted would subject potential offenders to repercussions. And the moderators should be held to stricter guidelines also.

But the hatefests are so thoroughy embedded in threads going way back that I don't know how you'd ever clean it up except by deleting entire posts, some of which you say you have already done... which is tacit admission that you know much of what I'm saying has validity. Instead of calling Kruse a victim of himself, maybe a good look in the mirror would reveal what web you have woven. If Kruse was allowed to engage in any ad hominem on this site, then again, the ultimate responsibility lies with you, not with Kruse.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 10, 2012
at 06:59 PM

Your statement about Kruse may be an uncomfortable statement of fact (and it's true for any of us), but given the context that the statement was made in gives it a rather consenting appearance. Context is everything.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 10, 2012
at 08:05 PM

No one is scared of the FBI. I was rather annoyed that someone would say that they are coming to put me in jail, but no one actually believed that would happen. I talked to them because I was curious.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 10, 2012
at 05:01 PM

As for moderation issues, we are significantly hampered by Stack Exchange's decision to deprecate sites like this, so we have no access to any type of software upgrade. We couldn't remove anonymity if we wanted to. We can't even keep anyone from editing this mod post!

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on May 10, 2012
at 05:50 PM

edrice has some interesting points. 1) wrt ad hominem, we do miss too many, especially if folks don't flag them. 1a) my comment about Kruse is an uncomfortable statement of fact, sorry -- I have DEFENDED Kruse multiple times on PH even when I vehemently disagreed with him 2) This thread exists b/c Kruse "fomented" this hysteria. He could have clammed up (as Robb Wolf suggested) and we wouldn't have a need for this set-the-record-straight post. 3) All forums have challenges, this one has plenty. I don't agree with the call for non-anonymity - I think it is wrong-headed.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on May 10, 2012
at 05:55 PM

Last last thing -- Kruse's witchhunt and enthusiasm for being a martyr should give all of his disciples pause as I and RW have pointed out.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 10, 2012
at 05:01 PM

I wish we could go back to the arguing about Taubes days. Taubes has several well-written works with real scientific references to argue about. Furthermore, while he was a little rude at AHS, he is nothing compared to Kruse. He handled his own LC cruise situation with eminent grace, so much so that no one has really been talking about it.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 10, 2012
at 11:59 PM

That was disingenuous and strawman, Patrik, and you know it. And this is where the culture of PH originates. "Illegal" and "liability" are not the same thing, so stop putting words in other peoples' mouths. Please delete my account. I've asked for this before.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:20 PM

@edrice -- nice veiled threats of "slander". Good work buddy. Way to raise the level of discourse. For the record, no one I know of (except maybe for the "Lance" whomever they are) is running scared of the FBI...b/c no crime was committed, contrary to you/Kruse.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 10, 2012
at 06:58 PM

Patrik, my post had nothing to do with your objectivity about Kruse. I think you have been fair with him when you disagreed so that's not the point. My point is that all this slander has been allowed to run rampant on this forum and now look what's happened! Everybody's running around scared to death of the FBI. This is the real adult world and it's been like a bunch of kids in here recklessly shooting off their mouths expecting no repercussions.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 10, 2012
at 06:59 PM

I never made the claim anywhere that Kruse olds no responsibility for what has happened to him. But in the event PH or members are investigated because there's slander all over it, who holds that responsibility? We all make our own beds and now some of the culprits are yelling, "Who, me!?" Maybe Kruse should clam up but I can think of others that would do well to follow that advice.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 10, 2012
at 07:14 PM

There are ways to disagree in a more mature and eloquent fashion. There is no need for all the drama and inflated egos.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on May 10, 2012
at 05:19 PM

Many users have been deleted. But deleting is something we must be careful about, because deleted users often come back with different names and different email addresses and use different IPs -- and want revenge. There is only so much that laws and moderation can do; when a culture changes, a culture changes.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 10, 2012
at 07:11 PM

I don't usually get so involved in any of this but it did seem like an oppotunity to attempt to raise the level of discourse in PH. Jus' sayin'

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on May 10, 2012
at 05:53 PM

Lastly, your claim that Kruse holds no responsibility for what has happened to him is ridiculous. Kruse is decisive and polarizing figure on PH, on his blog, on twitter, and elsewhere ---- many people have counseled me to simply delete him from PaleoHacks, which I would well within my rights to do -- but I haven't as long as he plays by the rules, which, right now, he seems to barely contain himself within.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 10, 2012
at 09:16 PM

I just know that if something like this ever happened to me, I'd be madder than a hornet and legally bring the full weight of something on somebody. If they do find out who did this and can in any way connect it back as a contributor to PH and it could be shown that PH was so loosely run that it was festering ground for this kind of hatred, there could be some potential liability issues. I just think the PH crew is a little naive in some worldly matters and needs to tighten up a bit and do some housecleaning.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on May 10, 2012
at 10:24 PM

@edrice - so PaleoHacks isn't a "festering ground for this kind of hatred" but even it were, that isn't illegal. Anyhow "thanks for your "advice". Feel free to start a forum of "non-hatred" of your own and moderate it as you see fit.

8fbbf720caae616b07d3a8a12e59093f

(56)

on May 10, 2012
at 07:16 PM

I'm at the edge of my seat waiting for Studio B to mangle the story

0
A0e3b5eeb45b7d6e5689847fbc79959a

on May 15, 2012
at 07:58 PM

the call was NOT the crime if it was made by a random person with no involvement in paleo or SKS etc.

SKS = bullies.

0
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78417)

on May 09, 2012
at 12:01 AM

I think Dr. Jack Kruse is the most awesome thing to hit the paleo world in a long, long time. We'll see who's laughing soon!

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