2

votes

A Doggie question

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created June 24, 2012 at 3:11 AM

alt text

I know dogs are not people, but I figured it cannot hurt to ask...

I have a 13 year old dog who has been super hungry for the past three years (all tests/bloodwork/thyroid are normal..spent a fortune at the vet).

Reading all the human posts, I was thinking maybe he is not getting enough fat. He currently eats whole prey (guinea pigs, quail, baby chicks).

So, if I wanted to add some fat to his diet, what fat would you suggest? Plant (coconut oil) or animal? and how much?

Sorry if this is not relevant, but my animals are all paleo too :-)

Medium avatar

(4878)

on September 30, 2012
at 01:17 AM

Read up on Pottenger's Cats...You'll learn a lot about epigenetics, raw food, and why mother nature is so smart.

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 25, 2012
at 01:28 AM

@Marie: We used to do green tripe, but as you know...the SMELL! He's gonna love the sardines :-) Gotta see how expensive the oysters are.

0b8e2def29520ec9526577c35fddcaa0

(105)

on June 25, 2012
at 12:52 AM

@ Chinaeskimo, I'm sure that they are less like than those who are on grain based diets but if they have been eating low fat levels the high introduction can still cause issues probably just not as severe. All the dogs I've seen at work have been on grain based kibble, so that is a definite but my lab mix is on a grain free kibble and he "cleaned" the pan we made 2 lbs of bacon in that morning. Next morning we were at the vet because he was vomiting up everything and had no appetite. At the vet it moved through his system and turned to very stinky bloody diarrhea.

1133603ea602c6824da56e8b596c9754

(604)

on June 24, 2012
at 02:22 PM

Any fat they consume should be raw, no question.

7fc82eebafd44badc73c520f44660150

(3285)

on June 24, 2012
at 01:10 PM

Dogs ARE paleo: medium rare with a little pastured butter!

Medium avatar

(4878)

on June 24, 2012
at 12:21 PM

From the picture, those tear stains are indicative of low stomach acid, similar to what happens to humans as they age. I'd add 1 tsp of ACV (with the mother) to his food daily and I'd also be looking for more sources of metals through Green Tripe products as additional probiotics can help get his system in track. AND, YES to fish oils and fish. Feeding a can of sardines + oysters a week can do amazing things for enzymatic function.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on June 24, 2012
at 12:13 PM

With respect to your vet's advice: remember that their nutritional training is WORSE than an MDs, and largely provided by Pet Food Companies. {I'm currently coaching my dog's vet on feeding raw as her dog was just diagnosed with cancer, so I'm getting a very good view of what vets do and don't know about nutrition.} My advice is to remain a skeptic of any advice provided by a vet, just as you would a "normal" MD.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on June 24, 2012
at 12:10 PM

Snauzoo, BARF is too complex for some dogs (and their people), so Prey Model is a much better solution if you ever want to try Raw again. I know of many Schnauzers who do great on it...Your vet doesn't know what he is talking about. The phenotypes of dogs have only been manipulated heavily in the last 200 years, so they are closer to wolves than you'd imagine. This is one of the reasons the DNA tests for dogs have such ridiculous results. They are much more genetically alike than they appear.

363d0a0277a8b61ada3a24ab3ad85d5a

(4642)

on June 24, 2012
at 05:56 AM

I loved the site as well, though the reality of animal abuse is always hard to see - thanks for doing what you do to lessen it!

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 24, 2012
at 05:26 AM

@Snauzoo: Yes, Mr. Bear once sauntered onto a soccer field. One of the kids yelled "DOG!" Mr Bear said "where?"

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 24, 2012
at 05:25 AM

@Karin: Wow, thanks so much! You don't know how much it means (especially since poor hubby is really burnt out supporting my "animal" habit, lol).

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 24, 2012
at 05:24 AM

Oh, not at the same time, but all three, one at a time and see which has the best result.

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 24, 2012
at 05:24 AM

Boy, Mr. Bear is gonna be in for a treat next week. I am gonna do an experiment and try egg yolk, coconut butter, and fish oil and see what happens. So would this be a d=1? ;-)

2d1729002574093032132b662b536226

(78)

on June 24, 2012
at 05:22 AM

...pssst do not tell your dog he is not a people, it will hurt his feelings!

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 24, 2012
at 05:22 AM

Yeah, Mr. Bear (yes, quite formal, we still don't know his first name) is an American Eskimo. They are considered by some to be a more primitive dog and seem to switch right over to raw, more so than any other breed we get in the rescue. Maybe I should buy some good salmon oil for him, but it smells so bad.

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 24, 2012
at 05:04 AM

Good point, although I wonder if eating raw would make him less likely to get pancreatitis? Dogs are the only carnivores whose bodies regulate their pancreatic enzymes and a dog fed a raw vs a grain based diet has their enzymes set on high.

A65499f2f8c65602881550fe309cd48c

(3501)

on June 24, 2012
at 04:43 AM

Btw, thanks for what you do to rescue animals. Went to your website and was very moved. You're awesome:)

363d0a0277a8b61ada3a24ab3ad85d5a

(4642)

on June 24, 2012
at 04:23 AM

I add egg yolks for my cats - it really satiates their hunger. Apparently whites aren't that great for cats (can block ability to absorb biotin.. one won't touch whites, the other likes the whole thing), but growing up we had paleo dogs and we used to give them the whole egg, shell and all and they loved them.

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 24, 2012
at 04:20 AM

That's a great idea! I have some quail eggs from Chinatown in the fridge...I forgot all about them!

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 24, 2012
at 04:20 AM

I gave him a spoonful of coconut butter tonight. You should have seen his face :-) It took him forever to swallow it all down. Then he went to sleep, and stopped bothering me for food, so maybe it worked?

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6 Answers

3
724ac8ed9ddc603e87adf6cfb901a8d8

on June 24, 2012
at 03:53 AM

egg yolks are great too...actually, whole eggs, shells & all are fantastic.

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 24, 2012
at 05:24 AM

Oh, not at the same time, but all three, one at a time and see which has the best result.

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 24, 2012
at 04:20 AM

That's a great idea! I have some quail eggs from Chinatown in the fridge...I forgot all about them!

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 24, 2012
at 05:24 AM

Boy, Mr. Bear is gonna be in for a treat next week. I am gonna do an experiment and try egg yolk, coconut butter, and fish oil and see what happens. So would this be a d=1? ;-)

363d0a0277a8b61ada3a24ab3ad85d5a

(4642)

on June 24, 2012
at 04:23 AM

I add egg yolks for my cats - it really satiates their hunger. Apparently whites aren't that great for cats (can block ability to absorb biotin.. one won't touch whites, the other likes the whole thing), but growing up we had paleo dogs and we used to give them the whole egg, shell and all and they loved them.

2
0b8e2def29520ec9526577c35fddcaa0

on June 24, 2012
at 04:44 AM

I would introduce the fat in slowly though, too much fat at once could send you back to the vet with pancreatitis. I've seen this many times at work and my boyfriend has done it to our own dog once. No fun, watch for vomiting and loss of appetite.

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 24, 2012
at 05:04 AM

Good point, although I wonder if eating raw would make him less likely to get pancreatitis? Dogs are the only carnivores whose bodies regulate their pancreatic enzymes and a dog fed a raw vs a grain based diet has their enzymes set on high.

1133603ea602c6824da56e8b596c9754

(604)

on June 24, 2012
at 02:22 PM

Any fat they consume should be raw, no question.

0b8e2def29520ec9526577c35fddcaa0

(105)

on June 25, 2012
at 12:52 AM

@ Chinaeskimo, I'm sure that they are less like than those who are on grain based diets but if they have been eating low fat levels the high introduction can still cause issues probably just not as severe. All the dogs I've seen at work have been on grain based kibble, so that is a definite but my lab mix is on a grain free kibble and he "cleaned" the pan we made 2 lbs of bacon in that morning. Next morning we were at the vet because he was vomiting up everything and had no appetite. At the vet it moved through his system and turned to very stinky bloody diarrhea.

2
Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32556)

on June 24, 2012
at 03:49 AM

We supplement our dog's grain-free food with both coconut oil & lard. He LOVES both!

Try adding a tablespoon or so a day and increase slowly. Hopefully, you will be able to see him sated & know when to stop increasing the fat.

Hopefully someone who feeds raw will chime in!

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 24, 2012
at 04:20 AM

I gave him a spoonful of coconut butter tonight. You should have seen his face :-) It took him forever to swallow it all down. Then he went to sleep, and stopped bothering me for food, so maybe it worked?

0
2d1729002574093032132b662b536226

on September 30, 2012
at 12:30 AM

Wanted to follow up on my original comment and apologize that it took me 6 months to do so.

I wanted to point out my vet is totally not influenced by dog food companies. Furthermore he has a masters degree in infectious disease from UC Davis in addition to his other post grad training. He does not feed raw foods to his own dogs but does feed them cooked food and allows them marrow bones.

And I wish to reiterate that my dog is a near replica of his 100 year old ancestors. My sense is that dogs that breed adlitim can actually start expressing other epigenetic changes not seen in careful selective breeding of a champion line where a bitch may not even bE bred if her tail is set too low or she has white in her furnishings. In a true sense a show dog is a designer dog. It is very likely that the inbred nature of some champion lines can result in digestive issues. We see this in the hip dysplasia in German German Shephards. My schnauzer is American, going back many generations who were fed whatever was popular. He does not seem to be able to tolerate garbage dog food or garbage human food. He does well on what we feed him, and is of normal weight, glossy shiny eyes and irrepressible spirit.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on September 30, 2012
at 01:17 AM

Read up on Pottenger's Cats...You'll learn a lot about epigenetics, raw food, and why mother nature is so smart.

0
35b2cb4d450e5288895c255dfdfff35d

(5828)

on June 24, 2012
at 02:07 PM

I give my German Shepherd fatty meat (raw), salmon (cooked, canned), meaty rib bones (raw), chicken (raw), eggs (raw, occasionally) and all kinds of raw bones except for those big weight bearing bones. She does great on that diet. No issues with her pancreas.

0
2d1729002574093032132b662b536226

on June 24, 2012
at 05:16 AM

I tried to transition my dog to a BARF diet and he could not tolerate it. I talked this over with my vet and here is what he said. Your dog is a champion show dog, bred to look exactly like the breed wants it to look like. This has been going on for countless generations. As a result this particular breed has some digestive issues with an ancestral diet, because it simply has adapted to a cooked food diet. Our final solution was a grain free diet that is cooked.

My dog is a miniature Schnauzer, a breed that is known to be prone to pancreatitis and I have to watch his fat intake. He gets zero people food unless he finds it on the floor - small bits of cooked carrot and sweet potato get slipped to him occasionally. No dairy, no grains, no legumes. So he is a paleo schnauzer! He is German. Seriously, his blood line goes back to a breeder who first brought this breed to California in the 50s. He is not adapted in the least to anything but what top breeders buy. Most top breeders avoid corn and wheat, BTW. He is most assuredly not adapted to tropical oils.

As far as eggs go - we buy pastured eggs and I accidentally allowed one to roll off the table. I do not recommend raw eggs for dogs with 4 inch long beards. After the egg was offered to him, and he enjoyed it, trust me, he had to have a bath. He had egg on his whiskers, beard, mustache, eyebrows and legs. I would not feed him grocery store eggs any more than I would eat them myself. I think the fat profile is far more digestible.

The food he gets contains probiotics and it seems to keep his sensitive GI track calmed down.

03a4ec34751186201a56da298ac843ce

(4100)

on June 24, 2012
at 05:22 AM

Yeah, Mr. Bear (yes, quite formal, we still don't know his first name) is an American Eskimo. They are considered by some to be a more primitive dog and seem to switch right over to raw, more so than any other breed we get in the rescue. Maybe I should buy some good salmon oil for him, but it smells so bad.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on June 24, 2012
at 12:10 PM

Snauzoo, BARF is too complex for some dogs (and their people), so Prey Model is a much better solution if you ever want to try Raw again. I know of many Schnauzers who do great on it...Your vet doesn't know what he is talking about. The phenotypes of dogs have only been manipulated heavily in the last 200 years, so they are closer to wolves than you'd imagine. This is one of the reasons the DNA tests for dogs have such ridiculous results. They are much more genetically alike than they appear.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on June 24, 2012
at 12:13 PM

With respect to your vet's advice: remember that their nutritional training is WORSE than an MDs, and largely provided by Pet Food Companies. {I'm currently coaching my dog's vet on feeding raw as her dog was just diagnosed with cancer, so I'm getting a very good view of what vets do and don't know about nutrition.} My advice is to remain a skeptic of any advice provided by a vet, just as you would a "normal" MD.

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